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by Jeremiah Healy

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  • Shamus Award Nominee for Best Hardcover Private Eye Novel of the Year
A model's murder takes Cuddy into the jaws of the Boston mob
She was born Tina Danucci, but modeled as Mau Tim Dani., Her friends find the slender beauty strangled to death in her apartment, a priceless necklace of hers nowhere in sight. The police dismiss the murder as an impossible-to-solve botched robbery, so the insurance company hires John Francis Cuddy to do what the homicide detectives can't. But there's something the cops know that Cuddy doesn't: Tina's murder isn't just hard to solve, it could be deadly.

Tina was the granddaughter of Tommy "the Temper" Danucci, the invisible face of the Boston mafia. She turned her back on him to become a model, but hers is the kind of family that never forgets a child. Once Danucci learns that the police have lo...
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Author Topic: is it really necessary? Graphic sex in books  (Read 2260 times)
Phyllis Lily Jules
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« Reply #75 on: February 06, 2012, 06:40:44 PM »

I stopped reading the Anita Blake series after Obsidian Butterfly for this very reason.  The series devolved into one page of plot, three pages of sex, one page of plot, four pages of Anita whining over her complicated sex life, half page of plot, two pages of sex...etc etc.  Graphic sex is like graphic violence.  It is just lazy writing that plays to the lowest common denominator.  It's the same reason I can't stomach half of what passes for a horror movie anymore. 

Well, I was going to say this exact thing but Julie already said it. And I stopped at that same book, having been a devoted Anita Blake fan up until then. Same thing with horror's gushing blood and sadism, seems like a hook, not a real part of the story. My imagination works overtime as it is, no need to spell it out for me. I wish authors would take that voyeuristic pause out and put some depth and character-building in.
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Jen Black
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« Reply #76 on: February 07, 2012, 02:42:38 AM »

With certain authors, I have wondered if the sex scenes are included to pad out the word count, particularly in the historical romance genre. Eight or nine six-page sex scenes seem a tad too much to me when the flavour of the sex, be it good, bad or ugly, can be established in one scene. Maybe a second scene might confirm that things are not good, if that is required for the plot. But maybe there is an age/experience/sex sells bias working as others have said.  Young people (and I'm talking generalities here; I know there will always be exceptions!) are curious about sex, whereas older people know enough and lose that curiosity, though I'm not saying they lose interest in sex. Maybe there's some mileage in the theory that if enough of the young and curious buy, then the author will be told to do more of the same and so the circle goes on.
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Iain Manson
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« Reply #77 on: February 07, 2012, 07:18:18 AM »

Back in my late teens and early twenties, I'd go through a novel just looking for the sex scenes. One way of finding them was to hold the book up in front of you, with the spine pointing away. The pages with the dirty edges were the dirty pages, if you see what I mean.

But that was forty years ago. Sex scenes now bore me rigid... unfortunate choice of word there, but never mind. I'm not offended, I'm not embarrassed; I'm just not interested. Unless something other than sex happens, the scene is irrelevant to the action, and shouldn't (unless it's erotica, I suppose) be there at all.

It may be that teens and twenties still go through novels looking for sex scenes, but I doubt it. There's plenty of erotica around, if that's what they want, and half the Web is in a permanent erotic frenzy.

Anyway, sex is overrated. The name escapes me of the male chauvinist swine (may he, of course, roast forever in Hell's hottest fires) who said "Who needs women, when you can just have a good wank, then have the rest of the evening to yourself."
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kaotickitten
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« Reply #78 on: February 07, 2012, 08:14:37 AM »

So wait a second. Are you seriously saying that authors should quit writing what they want and write what you want? So those who want to read graphic sex can what, jump off a cliff? You don't like it don't read it. Don't make it seem like authors need to take in the needs of readers that aren't their intended audience. This is actually the second thread on this and in the other, those that did like it, complained that it was a cop out to fade into black. So are your needs and wants more valid than theirs?

As for if it's necessary, that's just a way to phrase things so the only answer is the one you want to hear. Nothing in writing is necessary, that's what makes it so interesting. The whole idea that the author needs to keep everyones wishes in mind is just ridiculous. Some people don't like religious references or guts or gun fights or heteronormative relationships. Should every author take all of these into consideration or, instead, focus on their audience? You don't like the heavy sex, don't read it. Feel you've been tricked, speak up. But this finger wagging is just a bit much.
No I was not saying writers have to quit writing what they want.  I said that if you write it please advertise that you have added it.  You just added words to my mouth by the way. You need to look at what I wrote. I said if you are a writer of erotica than it is not gratuitous but necessary.  So no authors do not need to cater to me. I just don't have to buy them if they are into adding  graphic sex into their books.  Stephen King does not cater to me.  Yet he doesn't add graphic sex to his books. If you have read my post I have said I don't read it. You need to learn not everything is directed at you.  I am sorry you think I was saying that authors have to cater to people.  You know what though it doesn't matter. Their are a lot of people who don't mind sex in the books they read and on the flip there are many who do.  Just cause in another thread which is neither here nor there in this thread some don't like fade to black some do. So if the ones who do were to read what you had posted to me than it would be saying that suck it you have to read about sex.  Which is what is so great about the publishing world.  They cater to both sides of the coin.  If someone doesn't want to read about God than guess what don't pick up the book. As to feeling as If I had been trick to speak up I will.  Not just in the review but on forums. It's funny how you are defending this but yet choice not to truly read what I have wrote simply because it is on the other side of things. Yet you seem to think I can't think that sex doesn't belong in books because you do.  Well guess what to me it doesn't and I avoid books that have it.  You like you buy it.  I never said that you or the writers couldn't have it.  I simply said that I don't feel it is necessary. I being the key word.
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Jon Olson
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« Reply #79 on: February 07, 2012, 09:48:07 AM »

How many times are we going to go around and around on this topic?
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Lursa (aka 9MMare)
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« Reply #80 on: February 07, 2012, 11:00:44 AM »

With certain authors, I have wondered if the sex scenes are included to pad out the word count, particularly in the historical romance genre.

Well if I was reading romance, even historical romance, I would expect sex scenes. As with anything, I would still expect it to be well-written and fit into the story. I would especially expect well-written sex scenes in romance! (but not always a realilty, I know)
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Bethany B.
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« Reply #81 on: February 07, 2012, 11:33:17 AM »

No I was not saying writers have to quit writing what they want.  I said that if you write it please advertise that you have added it.  You just added words to my mouth by the way. You need to look at what I wrote. I said if you are a writer of erotica than it is not gratuitous but necessary.  So no authors do not need to cater to me. I just don't have to buy them if they are into adding  graphic sex into their books.  Stephen King does not cater to me.  Yet he doesn't add graphic sex to his books. If you have read my post I have said I don't read it. You need to learn not everything is directed at you.  I am sorry you think I was saying that authors have to cater to people.  You know what though it doesn't matter. Their are a lot of people who don't mind sex in the books they read and on the flip there are many who do.  Just cause in another thread which is neither here nor there in this thread some don't like fade to black some do. So if the ones who do were to read what you had posted to me than it would be saying that suck it you have to read about sex.  Which is what is so great about the publishing world.  They cater to both sides of the coin.  If someone doesn't want to read about God than guess what don't pick up the book. As to feeling as If I had been trick to speak up I will.  Not just in the review but on forums. It's funny how you are defending this but yet choice not to truly read what I have wrote simply because it is on the other side of things. Yet you seem to think I can't think that sex doesn't belong in books because you do.  Well guess what to me it doesn't and I avoid books that have it.  You like you buy it.  I never said that you or the writers couldn't have it.  I simply said that I don't feel it is necessary. I being the key word.

Oh please, bold some more so I can really understand your point.  Roll Eyes

First, this is a general thread. You post it and I can respond. So as to if it was directed to me, you made it so by having a public discussion. And the other thread that you tossed aside was posted on less than a month ago. Its relevance is purely off of the fact that this horse has already been flogged.

Edit:Made my response more appropriate for this argument: Whatever.
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John Blackport
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« Reply #82 on: February 07, 2012, 11:42:48 AM »

How many times are we going to go around and around on this topic?

I was wondering that myself. Along with how many separate threads KB needs about it. What's wrong with one? It's not like comments about sex scenes become less relevant just because a few months go by.
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Jen Black
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« Reply #83 on: February 08, 2012, 03:43:18 AM »

Jon - some of us are new here (well, newish) and the topic is new to us!

Lursa - yes, sure there has to be some sex in romance genres these days, but its the monumental amount of pages devoted to sex in every position  - forwards, backwards, sideways - that makes me wonder about padding out the word count. After the first two or three books by the particular author I have in mind, I just sigh and skip over to where the story continues. Her storylines are good, but there's only so many ways she can write a sex scene and they soon get repetitive - for me, anyway!
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Jorja Tabu
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« Reply #84 on: February 08, 2012, 06:52:02 AM »

With certain authors, I have wondered if the sex scenes are included to pad out the word count, particularly in the historical romance genre...

For the record, I would love to be able to casually churn out a couple of pages of sex (because, as many have pointed out, there is an audience for it and money buys food!) but I think for many authors sex scenes are really challenging--my books are erotica, but they are really about relationships.  The sex the characters have is part of the way they are revealed to the reader as people, and always important to show how they feel about themselves and their relationships.  So just for the record, not all of the people writing about sex are padding the word count--not that you said that, just to offer a different perspective!
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John Blackport
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« Reply #85 on: February 08, 2012, 10:07:49 AM »

Jon - some of us are new here (well, newish) and the topic is new to us!

Well, that's a good point I guess.

Lursa - yes, sure there has to be some sex in romance genres these days, but its the monumental amount of pages devoted to sex in every position  - forwards, backwards, sideways - that makes me wonder about padding out the word count.

I don't think that's quite what's going on.

It's been a while since I regularly read romances, but what you said reminds me of a particular one that my wife and I both enjoyed. It was a Regency. Heroine was 18 or 19, Hero was mid-twenties, both were gentry.

Heroine is orphaned, probably through actions of Villain. Heroine can't inherit a fee tail due to her gender. Villain wants to possess both Heroine and her fortune.

Heroine's fate is decided, at least in the short term, by Duke. Villain wants Heroine to be his ward, this is all set to happen but somehow Duke makes Hero the guardian, with the stipulation that Hero and Heroine have separate living & sleeping quarters.

Hero and Heroine fall in love. Despite the reasonable precautions of the Duke, explicit sex happens, I frankly don't remember how many separate sex scenes. Maybe it was one or two, or maybe it was six. I read this years ago.

But here's what I do remember:

Duke has a costume party. Of course, Hero, Heroine and Villain all show up. At about midnight, Hero and Heroine sneak out into the Duke's garden and have noisy sex in the gazebo.

OK, I frankly enjoyed this sex scene --- because it heralded a future conflict. At this point, I had been losing faith in the novel, because the obstacles between Hero and Heroine seemed to have dwindled into insignificance, particularly Villain who was turning out to be kind of a wuss. However, this sex scene was ripe for causing new, non-sexual problems for the lovers --- I foresaw another party guest (maybe Villain!) blowing the whistle on this, and the Duke finding out. Duke had been predisposed to like the lovers so far, but if they embarrassed him like this he was likely to slam some kind of hammer down. This seemed likely to bring the plot some needed complication from an unexpected quarter.

In the next chapter, the truth did come out, the Duke had his private talk with the Hero, and it ended with the Duke saying, "I'm so glad you two are in love! Best wishes to you both!"

No obstacle whatsoever. My hopes were dashed.

My problem wasn't the inclusion of the sex scene --- or how explicit it may have been. The problem was that, the inclusion of the sex scene made somebody lazy (maybe the writer, maybe the editor; in the end it didn't matter). This was well before the "e-book revolution", when e-book sales were insignificant --- word count mattered, but it was often something to be cut down, rather than padded. There's no way to know whether the author had originally included the plot I wanted, but if they had, when deciding which 5,000 words to cut, between the tension-causing, character-building, climactic plot obstacle and the sex scene, somebody would have probably decided to keep the sex scene. Because it's a simpler, easier decision.

And "fade-to-black" would have never worked with a scene like that one. When a sex scene's plot significance is that one or both lovers will suffer consequences for this later, "fade-to-black" fails to deliver. Giving the reader the full impact of whatever punishment lovers face for being caught with their hands in the cookie jar, requires description of how delicious the cookies were.

I'm not saying "fade-to-black" never works. Many times it's the best choice.

But sex scenes can be mismanaged --- written badly like any other scene; unnecessary like any other scene, and so forth. But the level of "explicit-ness" is often not the problem. . . in fact, I'd say it's rarely the problem, at least at the writing stage. The level of explicit sex in a book is a problem when readers are misled about what the book contains.

« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 11:50:01 AM by John Blackport » Logged

Lursa (aka 9MMare)
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« Reply #86 on: February 08, 2012, 11:11:05 AM »

Jon - some of us are new here (well, newish) and the topic is new to us!

Lursa - yes, sure there has to be some sex in romance genres these days, but its the monumental amount of pages devoted to sex in every position  - forwards, backwards, sideways - that makes me wonder about padding out the word count. After the first two or three books by the particular author I have in mind, I just sigh and skip over to where the story continues. Her storylines are good, but there's only so many ways she can write a sex scene and they soon get repetitive - for me, anyway!

LOL, well that does take some of the 'romance' out of it. I havent read a romance in a long time, altho I'm trying to read JD Robb's Naked in Death now. So I dont remember that from romances that I have read but things do change. And I do remember sex scenes so long...and boring...that I skipped over those anyway.

I think it's like anything else...if it fits in and is well-written it provides value and enjoyment. If not....wastin' my time and I'll skip over it.
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Lursa (aka 9MMare)
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« Reply #87 on: February 08, 2012, 11:35:03 AM »

How many times are we going to go around and around on this topic?

Think of it like an unnecessary sex scene....you can skip right over it.  Grin
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