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Author Topic: Philosophical strands  (Read 505 times)
onstanley
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« on: January 27, 2012, 10:50:44 AM »

There are many notable philosophical novels e.g. Nausea by Jean Paul Sartre, Thus Spoke Zarathustra by Friedrich Neitzsche etc. Some of these can be very heavy going. I like to read a serious novel which has some philosophical background, without being too heavy on the theory. Charles Dickens accomplishes this I feel in novels like Bleak House, where Dickens mounts a damning critique of British society of the time, arguing that society has a unity rather than a scrambling mass of individuals.
I was reading the preamble to A Fateful Aberration by Les Jones (kindle ebook), and noticed that the thought of Mary Wollstonecraft (a noted philosopher and mother of Mary Shelley) influences the thought and actions of one of the major characters, Fiona James. On reading the book one finds that a titanic battle of wills ensues between Fiona and her Wollstonecraft ideas, and the other major character Noakes and his far less optimistic view of mankind. It is a fascinating struggle.
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Geemont
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« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2012, 02:40:55 PM »

L'Etranger by Albert Camus (translated as The Stranger or The Outsider) comes to mind as one of the great philosophical novels and it can be read in a night by most good readers, probably.  Not available on Kindle.

Thomas Hardy and Theodore Dreiser (public domain)  have many philosophical undertones, but their prose is often dense to turgid, especially Dreiser.  But they are still worth reading.

And a science fiction novel with a philosophical resonance: Solaris by Stanislaw Lem.
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Richardcrasta
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« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2012, 08:25:14 PM »

Quite a few good books of literature are accidentally, meaning not pedantically, philosophical. Books by Don De Lillo, Saul Bellow, for example.
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« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2012, 09:04:31 PM »

Hi,

I actually hang out at various philosophy fora. I enjoy the cut and thrust of the debate and the ideas spewed up in the affray. But when I read fiction I really don't want to weigh my enjoyment down with heavy philosophy. So if a book has a philosophical point to be made, I'd prefer it to be light. That being said, Stranger in a Strange Land, Heinlein is quite an interesting reinterpretation of the life of Jesus, and well worth a read. Farenheight 451, and of course the Orwellian books Animal Farm and 1984 all have interesting philosophical points to be made, as did Lord of the Flies, though it's not a fun read.

Cheers, Greg.
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John A. A. Logan
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« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2012, 12:32:08 AM »

Robert Pirsig's ZEN AND THE ART OF MOTORCYCLE MAINTENANCE, and LILA, are blends of philosophy and narrative that I enjoyed very much.
There is also the Scottish Highland novelist, Neil Gunn, who wrote 10 or so social realist novels, very popular with readers and critics. Then a friend gave Gunn a copy of ZEN IN THE ART OF ARCHERY by Herrigel. This injection of Eastern philosophy influenced Gunn so much that his next 10 novels were NOT so liked by the majority of 1950s readers or the critics.
Then, much like Thomas Hardy after the public reception of his final novel, JUDE THE OBSCURE...Gunn reacted by declaring he would never publish another novel.
He did put out one more book, though, when he was 65, THE ATOM OF DELIGHT, describing it as his "spiritual autobiography".
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onstanley
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« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2012, 04:21:57 AM »

I am very impressed by the quality of replies to my original posting. Some excellent points have been made, and excellent books recommended, I will try to read some of the recommended books that I have not previously read. Keep these quality replies coming!!!
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Borislava Borissova
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« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2012, 05:00:47 AM »

Gore Vidal - "Creation" and many other authors.
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R. Doug
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« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2012, 09:46:26 AM »

Simply must second Geemont on The Stranger by Albert Camus (pronouces Al-bear Cah-moo).  Mr. Camus was the 1957 recipient of the Nobel Literary Prize (he was only 44 or so at the time), and this relatively short Existentialist novel remains an absolute classic.
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« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2012, 10:08:26 AM »

Sounds interesting.

I like looking at the underlying philosophical implications from virtually any story. Whenever a writer views the world, that writer brings with him or her particular assumptions.
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« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2012, 05:06:49 AM »

I agree about Camus and absolutely loved The Stranger.

In a similar vein I'd also recommend anything by Franz Kafka and/or Hermann Hesse.  Kafka's absurdist streaks are a joy to read (and can be terrifying at times) while the characters written by Hesse are always some of my favorites.  I'd suggest starting with some Kafka short stories and either Demian or Steppenwolf by Hesse.
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Nancy Fulda
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« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2012, 04:23:16 AM »

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is very good.  I also love the plays of Jean Paul Sartre, especially No Exit. Lots of deep insight into the human condition there.
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onstanley
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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2012, 08:53:11 AM »

A lot to think about, some very perceptive posts. Interesting that Camus comes up a lot, a great writer and thinker. He of course was a friend of Sarte and Simone de Beauvoir, and the latter's thinking took feminism to new heights, building on the blocks laid by Mary Wollstonecraft. Interestingly, I think that Fiona in the novel cited in my original post was getting towards de Beauvoir's ideas and seeing women as not only the equals of men but maybe of greater insight in many matters.
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John A. A. Logan
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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2012, 10:32:27 AM »

John Kennedy Toole's, A CONFEDERACY OF DUNCES, one of my favourite novels, also has a unique blending of narrative and philosophy. The main character, Ignatius', favourite book is Boethius' CONSOLATION OF PHILOSOPHY. So, in amongst the narrative action, we get Ignatius' thoughts about Boethius, and his life and work. If I remember right, Boethius' book also enters the narrative, discovered in a public toilet, by one of the characters. Some have said also, that the structure of Toole's novel, can be compared to the structure of Boethius' book.

There's also Mikhail Bulgakov's THE MASTER AND MARGARITA, a book prefaced with the excerpt from Goethe's FAUST:
'"Say at last - who art thou?"
"That Power I serve
Which wills forever evil
Yet does forever good"'

....and then it seems Bulgakov proceeds to create a novel like a laboratory within which that philosophy is put to the test.
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anguabell
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« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2012, 03:02:27 PM »

John Kennedy Toole's, A CONFEDERACY OF DUNCES, one of my favourite novels, also has a unique blending of narrative and philosophy. The main character, Ignatius', favourite book is Boethius' CONSOLATION OF PHILOSOPHY. So, in amongst the narrative action, we get Ignatius' thoughts about Boethius, and his life and work. If I remember right, Boethius' book also enters the narrative, discovered in a public toilet, by one of the characters. Some have said also, that the structure of Toole's novel, can be compared to the structure of Boethius' book.

There's also Mikhail Bulgakov's THE MASTER AND MARGARITA, a book prefaced with the excerpt from Goethe's FAUST:
'"Say at last - who art thou?"
"That Power I serve
Which wills forever evil
Yet does forever good"'

....and then it seems Bulgakov proceeds to create a novel like a laboratory within which that philosophy is put to the test.


I agree with Confederacy of Dunces but I don't think I would call Bulgakov's novel a "laboratory". The seemingly abstract concept of evil and good, of religion and philosophy, is just a thin veneer painted on the terrible reality of the era Bulgakov was not able to describe explicitly. I was never quite sure if the readers in other countries can fully grasp the very real horror that unfolds on the pages of The Master and Margarita. People had very little chance to stick to their philosophies under those circumstances, as Bulgakov knew only too well.
On the lighter note, here is another "philosophical" novel (although I admit, it is a bit superficial) that comes to mind - The Elegance of the Hedgehog by Muriel Barbery. Has anyone read it? I'm still not sure whether I liked it or not Smiley
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John A. A. Logan
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« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2012, 03:01:31 AM »

I agree with Confederacy of Dunces but I don't think I would call Bulgakov's novel a "laboratory". The seemingly abstract concept of evil and good, of religion and philosophy, is just a thin veneer painted on the terrible reality of the era Bulgakov was not able to describe explicitly. I was never quite sure if the readers in other countries can fully grasp the very real horror that unfolds on the pages of The Master and Margarita. People had very little chance to stick to their philosophies under those circumstances, as Bulgakov knew only too well.
On the lighter note, here is another "philosophical" novel (although I admit, it is a bit superficial) that comes to mind - The Elegance of the Hedgehog by Muriel Barbery. Has anyone read it? I'm still not sure whether I liked it or not Smiley

Perhaps I was only referring to the general sense in which any serious novel can be analogous to the "laboratory", where theories are tested, and yes, even to the point of matters of "life and death".
But with Bulgakov I had in mind partly, his other novel, THE HEART OF A DOG, where actions take place in a literal laboratory to convert the dog into a pseudo-human.
By testing the Faustian principle in the laboratory of The MASTER AND MARGARITA, that the will to evil can sometimes produce good results inadvertently, perhaps Bulgakov is mirroring the opposite fact that Stalin's (or Mao's, or Pol-Pot's) Communist Will to Good, had so clearly produced the evil results you refer to quite rightly.
Bulgakov was one of the writers whose fiction was included in the 1991 Black Spring Press anthology of Stalinist-era Russian writers' short stories, THE TERRIBLE NEWS.
He was one of the few writers included in the anthology who was not murdered by Stalin's state for writing those stories.
And many of those doomed writers were clearly consciously aware that the new circumstances of the Communist era, had placed them in a deadly, cold, and yes, laboratory-like environment, where if you did not agree with the word of the doctors/scientists you would never leave the hospital alive.
As Zoshchenko's character says in that book, "We're not in the theatre comrades!The blood is real, and the pain is real, and the madness is real."

Bulgakov was perfectly aware of the "very real horror" of his circumstances, while his peer group of writers was being murdered, and his own work suppressed, but what was his response? To write to the Soviet Government in complaint at his own work's suppression, resulting in a phone call to his house from Stalin, which in turn led to Bulgakov's work at the Moscow Arts Theatre.
It's doubtful too that Bulgakov's vision in THE MASTER AND MARGARITA, its philosophical content, was only a thin veneer in place to disguise a political or social satire.
His father was a professor of theology, Bulgakov had internalised that deeply and long been attracted also to the very occultism and mysticism that Soviet thought-dictate had outlawed. No mere satire would have required the long, reverently detailed accounts of the meetings at the temple between Yeshua and Pontius Pilate set 2000 years before the book's other timeline.
It is a book of the spirit, and I would disagree that under the direst circumstances people have very little chance to stick to their philosophies.
History, and even the history of literature, shows that it is exactly in those circumstances where everything else has been stripped away that people find all they have left are their philosophies.
That is exactly the point of Boethius, and his book, THE CONSOLATION OF PHILOSOPHY.
It is, in a sense, the position in which Bulgakov ultimately found himself, terminally ill, blind, dictating corrections for his beloved manuscript from a bed, to his wife, THE MASTER AND MARGARITA being therefore his last testimony until he died at age 48, with his own philosophy still intact it seems, and there is far more to that philosophy than a mere political satire.

And, on a lighter note (!)...I didn't realise consciously when I brought up John Kennedy Toole...and Mikhail Bulgakov...these are both examples of authors whose novels were not published in their lifetime, suppressed one way or another, only to appear when, in Bulgakov's case, his wife got the book published 27 years after his death...or, in Toole's case, it was his mother who got his manuscript published 11 years after her son's death.
As Bulgakov wrote: "Manuscripts don't burn."
It is strange to think that these days, because of an ironically named device called a "kindle"...such cases of literary suppression may be less frequent.  

All best,
John
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 03:35:41 AM by John A. A. Logan » Logged

anguabell
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« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2012, 08:49:45 AM »

Wow, such thoughtful and interesting posts in this threat.
It is a book of the spirit, and I would disagree that under the direst circumstances people have very little chance to stick to their philosophies.
History, and even the history of literature, shows that it is exactly in those circumstances where everything else has been stripped away that people find all they have left are their philosophies.
Perhaps some. Very small number of people had a luxury to live by their philosophy if it didn’t match the official ideology (and even then, many paid a high price for believing what the communism should be like, but that’s beside the point).  For most people their survival, and even more so, survival of their loved ones, becomes more important than their philosophy.  This does not apply to John, of course, but here is a pet peeve of mine - the blight condemnation with which the historians of a younger generation, who spent all their lives in free, democratic countries, judge those who lived in totalitarian regimes.  Yes, history shows us some heroes. It shows us remarkably little  about slow, soul destroying compromises such life consists of, even more painful when those compromises are in a stark contrast with our internal philosophy.  Sorry about being a bit vehement about it. I am from there.
My point was that Bulgakov’s novel is more than an abstract intellectual exercise or a mere satire - but I think we do agree on that.

And, on a lighter note (!)...I didn't realise consciously when I brought up John Kennedy Toole...and Mikhail Bulgakov...these are both examples of authors whose novels were not published in their lifetime, suppressed one way or another, only to appear when, in Bulgakov's case, his wife got the book published 27 years after his death...or, in Toole's case, it was his mother who got his manuscript published 11 years after her son's death.
Very interesting. I haven’t realized it either.
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Neil Ostroff
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« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2012, 03:43:52 PM »

Love philosophy!
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