Where does the money go for Tolkien and similar?

[MrPLD]

I was looking at the Top-20 Fantasy books (epic)  on Amazon, admiring my own positioning (we got to #3), and I noticed that Tolkien's books are still in amongst there on a steady basis.  If compare the numbers we moved, looked at the prices, then they'll be earning about $10,000~$20,000 a day or so, not a bad income,  but where does it go exactly?  There's about 13 PAGES of results for Tolkien works     That "Estate" sure is earning a nice keep.

[winspearj]

Rights usually pass to next of kin or whatever is stated in the will. My dad still receives royalties from his sister (Violet Winspear) who wrote for Mills & Boon (Harlequin) romance.
Jonathan

[dgaughran]

Usually deceased authors have a Literary Estate which manages their rights on behalf of their heirs after they have passed. For example, Ian Fleming's Literary Estate negotiates book deals, hires (and fires) literary agents, and even picks the Bond actors.

Like any other asset, you can have that Literary Estate benefit whomever you choose. If you don't make a will, it will go to your next-of-kin (depending on the laws where you live, in Ireland the order would be something like wife, children, parents, brothers and sisters, etc.).

[Millard]

I looked up Christopher Tolkien's house on Google maps.

[Decon]

Tolkein,s book has been a tricky one, as it was in the public domain ... or was in the US, until a supreme court case just brought it back within copyright. So I guess it will now be definately the descendants.


In Brazil, the translator owns the copyright to Lord of the Rings for the Brazil Portuguese version, and after a court case, she gets 6% of the cover price. She sued and sold her translated rights for the subtitles used by the filmakers and accepted a one off payment. The Law on copyright in Brazil follows the French sentiments on copyright.

[Seleya]

I'm curious, Decon: since the professor died in 1973 (39 years ago right now), according to which law could the text be in the public domain?

Unless you are referring to the trouble with the Ace Books unauthorized edition, but Tolkien itself took care of the matter back in 1965...

[Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson]

Rights usually pass to next of kin or whatever is stated in the will.

And all this time I thought the money went to these guys.

[jackz4000]

I'm curious, Decon: since the professor died in 1973 (39 years ago right now), according to which law could the text be in the public domain?

Unless you are referring to the trouble with the Ace Books unauthorized edition, but Tolkien itself took care of the matter back in 1965...

Berne Convention = Authors life + 70 years. But so much of LotR has also been trademarked and unless I am mistaken it would be difficult to use the characters etc, though not sure how that would work.

[Seleya]

Berne Convention = Authors life + 70 years. But so much of LotR has also been trademarked and unless I am mistaken it would be difficult to use the characters etc, though not sure how that would work.

Yes, that is what I was thinking of. The Professor's works are 31 years away from public domain.

[Decon]

Yes, that is what I was thinking of. The Professor's works are 31 years away from public domain.

It only applied to the US on foreign works  regards public domain and a decision was made on the 19th January 2012 in the Supreme Court to put works by the likes of Tolkein and George Orwell back into copyright from the public domain.

The following isn't the best of links but a search on the net will throw up posts about it in all the major US newspapers. You have to understand that copyright has gone through many changes throughout the world. Some countries adhere to conventions and others do not. It is the same with copyright on translations. In some countries, the copyright for the translated work belongs to the actual translator and some of these rights cannot be signed away in a contract. So in some instances, publishers will not be able to re-assign copyright to you for out of print translations without express agreement of the translator.



http://www.mediabistro.com/galleycat/j-r-r-tolkien-george-orwell-removed-from-public-domain_b45725

http://www.geekosystem.com/take-works-out-of-public-domain/

[jackz4000]

Yes, that is what I was thinking of. The Professor's works are 31 years away from public domain.

Goofed. It should be 95 years from publication since it was pubbed in the mid-50's. But....not 100% sure because it may have been renewed back when Ace Books thought it was PD.

Books pubbed 1923-63 = 28 years + 67 renewal = 95 years.

 But I would not be surprised to see copyright laws extended prior to that. Another Sonny Bono Disney push.

[Decon]

The supreme court ruling has significant meaning for google as it will take over 1 million books out of their intended free library. I am really surprised no one has been reading about it.


America didn't at one time subscribe to the Berne convention and when it decided to, the rights of congress to make changes and to put foreign authors work back into copyright from public domain was challenged. From the way I read it, it has taken 18 years to get it sorted and for the ruling to be made.

[jackz4000]

The supreme court ruling has significant meaning for google as it will take over 1 million books out of their intended free library. I am really surprised no one has been reading about it.


America didn't at one time subscribe to the Berne convention and when it decided to, the rights of congress to make changes and to put foreign authors work back into copyright from public domain was challenged.

I find Google to be too acquisitive in their quest for books for their library.

Early on the US didn't subscribe to copyrights. The US publishing industry would print books by British authors like Dickens and sell them without paying a penny. US publishers were the pirates back then. Euro books were the rage for US publishers and they never had to pay an author or British publisher. I think it continued until 1891?

[Decon]

Foreign works published between 1923 and 1989? where not covered by American copyright. Any right in any event would die with the author. This didn't just include books, it included music and painting by say Picasso.

I don't fully inderstand what has happend but in 1994 things started to change. This article seems to cover some of it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/19/business/public-domain-works-can-be-copyrighted-anew-justices-rule.html

This latest ruling in Jan 2012, put the subject to bed for foreign works

Afghan has no copyright laws at all, yet I bet everyone ticks it in their world rights

[jackz4000]

Foreign works published between 1923 and 1989? where not covered by American copyright. Any right in any event would die with the author. This didn't just include books, it included music and painting by say Picasso.

I don't fully inderstand what has happend but in 1994 things started to change. This article seems to cover some of it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/19/business/public-domain-works-can-be-copyrighted-anew-justices-rule.html

This latest ruling in Jan 2012, put the subject to bed for foreign works

Afghan has no copyright laws at all, yet I bet everyone ticks it in their world rights

The recent Supreme Court ruling extends copyright protection to some works lacking protection in the United States because they were not from a reciprocal US Copyright country when first published. Berne Convention member. Or because of a legal formality.

[Asher MacDonald]

Goofed. It should be 95 years from publication since it was pubbed in the mid-50's. But....not 100% sure because it may have been renewed back when Ace Books thought it was PD.

Books pubbed 1923-63 = 28 years + 67 renewal = 95 years.

 But I would not be surprised to see copyright laws extended prior to that. Another Sonny Bono Disney push.

They key there is the renewal. Prior to I believe 1962 or 1963 the author had to file to renew the copyright on an early edition. I am guessing Tolkien's American publisher forgot to file and thus it entered the public domain after 28 years.

Anything after 1962 or 1963 and the renewal is automatic. And now it's life plus 70 years or whatever it is, and it's likely that some big money people are going to pressure Congress to extend copyrights. I think some early Disney stuff is due to enter the public domain soon.

So basically there's this gray area after 1923 and before '62 or '63 where anything published MAY be in the public domain or MAY still be under copyright, but it's difficult to tell because the federal copyright office doesn't have computerized records to search.

I'm not a lawyer but I've read up on this and this is my understanding. In other words, my opinion. 

[jackz4000]

They key there is the renewal. Prior to I believe 1962 or 1963 the author had to file to renew the copyright on an early edition. I am guessing Tolkien's American publisher forgot to file and thus it entered the public domain after 28 years.

Anything after 1962 or 1963 and the renewal is automatic. And now it's life plus 70 years or whatever it is, and it's likely that some big money people are going to pressure Congress to extend copyrights. I think some early Disney stuff is due to enter the public domain soon.

So basically there's this gray area after 1923 and before '62 or '63 where anything published MAY be in the public domain or MAY still be under copyright, but it's difficult to tell because the federal copyright office doesn't have computerized records to search.

I'm not a lawyer but I've read up on this and this is my understanding. In other words, my opinion.  

As I recall it is a pretty funny story. LotR was published in Britain and had some very nice reviews and for a slow selling genre (fantasy) had okay sales. Ace here in the US published SF, but the publisher thought he could sell LotR as a paperback in the US, so he called Tolkien thinking Tolkien would jump at the offer. Tolkien told him he would never consent to having his books published in low class paperbacks and refused. Ace was p*ssed. His paperbacks weren't low class.

He researched LotR and found what he thought was a loophole that made the copyright invalid. Namely that Houghton Mifflin (?) had the pages to the American version printed in the UK and and Ace still smarting from Tolkien's insult printed up a run of over 100,000 paperbacks and they sold quite well. LotR was Public Domain.

Now Tolkien was p*ssed. He had paperbacks released in the UK through his publisher and took it to court. He was so determined not to lose his work through a copyright loophole that he re-wrote enough of the book to get a new copyright and sold it to Ballantine for paperback deal and sold tons of them. For a while both publishers versions were on the market and selling very well.

The fans and public besieged Ace and the Ballantine version had a note to readers asking them to not buy the Ace stolen version. Ace was getting it from all angles and agreed not to print any further copies and to pay Tolkien. Ballantine made tons off their new franchise, while Ace was portrayed as a thief stealing a poor old man's writing.

The Ace "loophole" was flimsy and didn't work out, a court later ruled no loophole existed, but all the attention that Tolkien and LotR received elevated sales across the board and ushered in the Fantasy genre as a large market which had previously been ignored. And Tolkien no longer looked down his nose at paperbacks since they were the brunt of sales.

But, Tolkien wasn't so smart. Later in 1969 he sold off the film rights and merchandising rights to a guy for $200K who became very wealthy. Can't recall his name?

[Asher MacDonald]

Yeah, that makes sense. If you go to Project Gutenberg you can find versions of books that were published in magazines that the writer never bothered to renew the copyright on. The Hugo award winning The Big Time by Fritz Leiber is a book that was published in a magazine first and that version is in the public domain. I believe there's a different version still under copyright.

[Seleya]

The fans and public besieged Ace and the Ballantine version had a note to readers asking them to not buy the Ace stolen version. Ace was getting it from all angles and agreed not to print any further copies and to pay Tolkien. Ballantine made tons off their new franchise, while Ace was portrayed as a thief stealing a poor old man's writing.

The Ace "loophole" was flimsy and didn't work out, a court later ruled no loophole existed, but all the attention that Tolkien and LotR received elevated sales across the board and ushered in the Fantasy genre as a large market which had previously been ignored. And Tolkien no longer looked down his nose at paperbacks since they were the brunt of sales.

But, Tolkien wasn't so smart. Later in 1969 he sold off the film rights and merchandising rights to a guy for $200K who became very wealthy. Can't recall his name?

Well, given that Ace had no permission and no legal standing, the company was actually stealing an old man's writing, not just 'portayed as such'.
And, you know... being businness savy and being smart aren't the same thing.

[BrianKittrell]

Christopher Tolkien, and I can't recall if he also writes in Middle Earth or if he just manages the rights so others can write there.