Amazon limiting download of purchased books!?

[Skydog]

Apparently this is reported to be in the fine print I have not yet found.  I wonder how this is affecting those who have returned multiple Kindles for replacement, requiring re-downloading of content.  Not to mention added iPhones and the upgraded Kindles Amazon is expecting us to buy.  This does not sound good at all:

 http://www.geardiary.com/2009/06/19/kindles-drm-rears-its-ugly-head-and-it-is-ugly/

[libros_lego]

I should start saving the books I buy on my computer then. That kinda sucks for those who rely on Amazon to save their books for them.

[Anju No. 469]

Guess that is a positive for no WN - all my books are on my computer.

[Jeff]

That's odd. The story reports that Amazon customer service claims that the download limit is set by the publisher. I looked at my publisher's dashboard and there's no place where I can set the number of times a customer can download.

[Forster]

The only surprise to me in that blog/article was that some books have less than the 6 device limit.  I do believe in the case of returns, etc. Amazon can remove some of the devices you have previously downloaded to restore your 6 device limit but IIRC Amazon has to do it and it is on a book by book basis.

This is one of my concerns with the DRM and the 6 download limit as it now stands, while I may not have more than 6 devices at any one time (I could conceivably have 5 with my family members), I will probably upgrade the device(s) several times over the years as newer/better gadgets come online and it will be only a matter of time before I reach the 6 book limit.

[Varin]

It happened to me x_X

Went through 6 or 7 kindles, then all of a sudden on my Manage your Kindle page, I got the "Cannot Sent To Selected Device" Error message for about half of my books.

I had to call up CS, get them to refund me all those books, then buy them again. Not so fun.

[Forster]

That's odd. The story reports that Amazon customer service claims that the download limit is set by the publisher. I looked at my publisher's dashboard and there's no place where I can set the number of times a customer can download.

The big publishing houses may have more room to negotiate the contract regarding this issue.  Probably much like the text to voice.

Out of curiosity do you have the ability to turn off the text to voice option on your publisher's dashboard?

[Greg Banks]

Out of curiosity do you have the ability to turn off the text to voice option on your publisher's dashboard?

Unless they just added it in the last few days, no.

[Skydog]

It happened to me x_X

Went through 6 or 7 kindles, then all of a sudden on my Manage your Kindle page, I got the "Cannot Sent To Selected Device" Error message for about half of my books.

I had to call up CS, get them to refund me all those books, then buy them again. Not so fun.

Exactly.  This is total nonsense.  At the rate of Kindle and/or iPhone upgrades sooner or later many, if not most, will run into this problem.  Not exactly what Amazon advertises.  "All your ebook purchases will be stored on Amazon's site to download at your convenience....."  but no disclaimer as to a limit.  Pretty lame, IMHO.  The ebook industry needs to wake up and follow that of the music industry and erradicate DRM.

[Jeff]

Out of curiosity do you have the ability to turn off the text to voice option on your publisher's dashboard?

I just looked and there's no such option but TTS, and the download limit, may be only for books published recently. Greg has a new one, I think.

[Forster]

Exactly.  This is total nonsense.  At the rate of Kindle and/or iPhone upgrades sooner or later many, if not most, will run into this problem.  Not exactly what Amazon advertises.  "All your ebook purchases will be stored on Amazon's site to download at your convenience....."  but no disclaimer as to a limit.  Pretty lame, IMHO.  The ebook industry needs to wake up and follow that of the music industry and erradicate DRM.

I truly think DRM will go away/become a non-issue with time.  

I don't know for sure, but I suspect Amazon would be perfectly happy selling non-DRM books if the publishers would allow it (they do music).  As more and more legitimate purchasers run into this problem the squawk over DRM will get louder and louder.

[Ann in Arlington]

I take the article with a grain of salt, and I'll tell you why.  First of all, as we all know, not all CS reps are created equal. . . . it doesn't sound to me like he got a particularly helpful or experienced one and I think he might get a different answer if he called back or asked to speak to a suprevisor.  But, secondly, and this is more telling, I got that same "can't download" message one day on a book, and the next day it came down fine.  Here's what happened:

I had purchased a couple of books a few days ago, after I'd ordered my DX.  Because of Amazon's initial naming method, the DX ended up being listed as the primary Kindle, so the books I ordered went there.  I realized what had happened when I went to check to see why they hadn't shown up and realized they'd gone to my DX's waiting room.  So, I went to the books and had them sent to my K1.

The first one showed 'sending' just fine, and the second one showed "can't download to that device."  Hmmm.  At first I thought it might be that my main Kindle memory was full, so I moved a few things, freeing up several MB, tried again and got the same message.  Odd.  I knew I hadn't exceeded my allotment of 6 downloads because I only have 2 devices, and no phantom devices from returns or exchanges.  I considered the possibility that this book was, for some reason, limited to just 1 download, but that really didn't make a lot of sense.  So I thought, well, I'll try again tomorrow and if I can't send it, then I'll contact CS.  This morning when I went and sent it, it came through just fine.

So, I think that there were some server issues at Amazon yesterday and that's why I had a problem, briefly.  If the author of this piece was having his problems yesterday, which it seems he was, he may have gotten caught up in it too.  Maybe it was because of all the new iPhones.  I don't think he has as big a problem as he believes he has, though it is true that he's limited to 6 downloads.  I couldn't tell if he was surprised to learn that or not, but i always thought that was pretty clearly stated.  I had previously heard  -- here on KB actually -- that some publishers limit the number to something less than 6.  That's a total bummer, of course -- we should absolutely let publishers know we don't appreciate it if that is their policy.

So, that's my experience, and my opinion, for what it's worth.

[Varin]

I take the article with a grain of salt, and I'll tell you why.  First of all, as we all know, not all CS reps are created equal. . . . it doesn't sound to me like he got a particularly helpful or experienced one and I think he might get a different answer if he called back or asked to speak to a suprevisor.  But, secondly, and this is more telling, I got that same "can't download" message one day on a book, and the next day it came down fine.  Here's what happened:

I had purchased a couple of books a few days ago, after I'd ordered my DX.  Because of Amazon's initial naming method, the DX ended up being listed as the primary Kindle, so the books I ordered went there.  I realized what had happened when I went to check to see why they hadn't shown up and realized they'd gone to my DX's waiting room.  So, I went to the books and had them sent to my K1.

The first one showed 'sending' just fine, and the second one showed "can't download to that device."  Hmmm.  At first I thought it might be that my main Kindle memory was full, so I moved a few things, freeing up several MB, tried again and got the same message.  Odd.  I knew I hadn't exceeded my allotment of 6 downloads because I only have 2 devices, and no phantom devices from returns or exchanges.  I considered the possibility that this book was, for some reason, limited to just 1 download, but that really didn't make a lot of sense.  So I thought, well, I'll try again tomorrow and if I can't send it, then I'll contact CS.  This morning when I went and sent it, it came through just fine.

So, I think that there were some server issues at Amazon yesterday and that's why I had a problem, briefly.  If the author of this piece was having his problems yesterday, which it seems he was, he may have gotten caught up in it too.  Maybe it was because of all the new iPhones.  I don't think he has as big a problem as he believes he has, though it is true that he's limited to 6 downloads.  I couldn't tell if he was surprised to learn that or not, but i always thought that was pretty clearly stated.  I had previously heard  -- here on KB actually -- that some publishers limit the number to something less than 6.  That's a total bummer, of course -- we should absolutely let publishers know we don't appreciate it if that is their policy.

So, that's my experience, and my opinion, for what it's worth.

Lucky. I had my issue several weeks ago, and had to get refunded and redownload like thirty books x_X. I wasn't caught up in anything, though, and I had waited a few days to see if the issue corrected itself, which it didn't. Then I gave CS a call.

[CS]

This kind of stuff only encourages piracy. If I ever ran into this issue, I'd have no qualms about resorting to "illicit" means to strip the DRM off my books to keep what I already paid for. Hopefully Amazon and/or the publishers wake up, and soon.

[back2nature]

This is ridiculous. You would think that once you pay for a book, it should be yours forever. There is something to be said about "paper" books. Naw. . .the Kindle is so much fun. . . and convenient.

I read that article, then started to think about everything else we download in this new digital world we live in. I know there is talk about iTunes music only being able to be copied up to 10 times to a CD. I thought, that's not fair, it's mine, I paid for it. Don't know if that's true, never tested it. Also, many of the software's we buy on line will allow you to download repeatedly up to maybe 30 days, then you can't.  Symantec's anti-virus software is also like that. They offer you an option to pay an extra fee to be able to download the software you just bought any time, or you can skip the extra fee and choose to backup at home to disc. Just make sure you have a backup somewhere.

Life is different nowadays, just because we've paid for something doesn't mean is always ours. If we lose it, we may have to buy it again. Yeah, I know that stinks, but that the new digital world. DRM may be helping the author or developer, but it's making it a nuisance for us buyers.

Like the saying goes, "Backup, backup, backup".

I know now, I will definitely plug in my USB and copy all those book files to my computer, external hard drive and maybe a DVD too.

[Addie]

I should start saving the books I buy on my computer then. That kinda sucks for those who rely on Amazon to save their books for them.

I thought I read one of the commenters of the article say when she downloaded books to her computer, they worked fine for the Kindle she currently had, but when she got a new one, it wouldn't download the books from her computer to the new Kindle because the books were already formatted to the previous Kindle. Did I misread that?
Does Amazon somehow tag the books with the device you have when you download it to your computer?

[Jesslyn]

Great article via Twitter on content license limits: Kindle's DRM Rears It's Ugly Head & It's Ugly http://bit.ly/jCQcT.  What is interesting is that I can no longer find the 6 device limit in the Kindle license.  If someone could help me out on this, I'd appreciate it.  It looks like the # of devices is now supposed to be unlimited via this paragraph:

Use of Digital Content. Upon your payment of the applicable fees set by Amazon, Amazon grants you the non-exclusive right to keep a permanent copy of the applicable Digital Content and to view, use, and display such Digital Content an unlimited number of times, solely on the Device or as authorized by Amazon as part of the Service and solely for your personal, non-commercial use. Digital Content will be deemed licensed to you by Amazon under this Agreement unless otherwise expressly provided by Amazon.

Via the TOS site (http://www.tosback.org/organization.php?cid=1) it looks like something changed, but I apparently am not up to that amount of thought on a Saturday morning.
Anyone?

[Jesslyn]

Guess we cross posted: 
Here's mine and thoughts.  Where is the 6 device limit text now?
-----------------------
Great article via Twitter on content license limits: Kindle's DRM Rears It's Ugly Head & It's Ugly http://bit.ly/jCQcT.  What is interesting is that I can no longer find the 6 device limit in the Kindle license.  If someone could help me out on this, I'd appreciate it.  It looks like the # of devices is now supposed to be unlimited via this paragraph:

Use of Digital Content. Upon your payment of the applicable fees set by Amazon, Amazon grants you the non-exclusive right to keep a permanent copy of the applicable Digital Content and to view, use, and display such Digital Content an unlimited number of times, solely on the Device or as authorized by Amazon as part of the Service and solely for your personal, non-commercial use. Digital Content will be deemed licensed to you by Amazon under this Agreement unless otherwise expressly provided by Amazon.

Via the TOS site (http://www.tosback.org/organization.php?cid=1) it looks like something changed, but I apparently am not up to that amount of thought on a Saturday morning.
Anyone?

[mwvickers]

As I've said before, issues like this are what worry me with not only Kindle, but with e-books in general.

I have a Kindle, and I use it every day.  I love it.

That being said, however, I am still not necessarily drawn to the Kindle more than to regular books.  And this is one reason why.  Even now, I have a book I want, and I am having the hardest time deciding whether it is better to buy it on Kindle, or to buy a hardcopy that I know I'll have without any issues for a long, long time.

If I buy a hardcopy book, I have it for the life of the book (and I take good care of mine, so they last a long time).  I don't have to buy a new one if I use up my "limited downloads" on it. 

I would love to see Kindle and e-books succeed, but they have some serious issues they are going to have to figure out first, I think. 

[Greg Banks]

I don't think we self publishers are given any such powers to restrict whether our books are TTS enabled. Let's not forget that this only came about because the publishers had a hissy fit about it. It wasn't Amazon's intent or idea. The same is probably true for this 6 Kindle license limit.

I'm inclined to believe a thought I saw over on the Amazon forums, which I'll express here in my own terms. All the Kindles you've ever bought are probably listed on your account. If you buy six Kindles, and download a book to all six, then you may have used up all your licenses. However, if you no longer own one or more of those Kindles, they are still registered in your account and count against your limit. But if you call Support and have them remove the older Kindles from your records, perhaps then it frees you up to download the ebook again.

[Forster]

I thought I read one of the commenters of the article say when she downloaded books to her computer, they worked fine for the Kindle she currently had, but when she got a new one, it wouldn't download the books from her computer to the new Kindle because the books were already formatted to the previous Kindle. Did I misread that?
Does Amazon somehow tag the books with the device you have when you download it to your computer?

Each device you register at Amazon has it's own unique identifier upon which the DRM is keyed.  If you have 2 kindles you must download it separately to each device in order to get the book to open. There is currently no "universal" DRM scheme that will allow one download to work with a group of e-readers even if they are registered under the same account.  This is why the publishers/Amazon allow 6 downloads to different registered devices it was a compromise of sorts.  If I understand correctly you can download a particular book to a particular kindle unlimited times.

[Addie]

Each device you register at Amazon has it's own unique identifier upon which the DRM is keyed.  If you have 2 kindles you must download it separately to each device in order to get the book to open. There is currently no "universal" DRM scheme that will allow one download to work with a group of e-readers even if they are registered under the same account.  This is why the publishers/Amazon allow 6 downloads to different registered devices it was a compromise of sorts.  If I understand correctly you can download a particular book to a particular kindle unlimited times.

Oh, I get it! Thanks for the clarification!

[libros_lego]

Does this mean that saving the book in my computer won't make a difference? I can only read a book in one particular kindle?

[imallbs]

Does this mean that saving the book in my computer won't make a difference? I can only read a book in one particular kindle?

That's the way it works.  If you read on more than one device you may want to save them in different folders on your computer.

I understood what I was getting into with DRM and have chosen to accept it.  But I would like a way to tell if there are fewer than 6 downloads allowed for a particular book.  As was mentioned before, this is important to me on reference books.  So much so, I have kept buying the paper versions of these books.

[Athenagwis]

This issue is why I am making sure my replacement Kindle's actually work (no sun fading) before I download anything.  I don't want to use up my licenses unnecessarily.  

I guess the thought for doing this is it prevents people from adding say your neighbor's Kindle to your account for one day, downloading all your books to their Kindle, and then deregistering it.  If you have limited licenses, you are much less likely to do something like this.  Obviously doing something like this once or twice might not be bad, but doing it for 10, 50, 100 people?  That might not be good.  The difference with digital books and paperback books is if I have a paperback book I can let 100 people read it for free, but they are all reading it sperately and they each have to wait their turn to read it.  Whereas with digital I could potentially allow 100 people to read the book I bought for free all at the same time.  So you have less of a chance of say the last 50 people giving up waiting and just buying it themselves like you do with the paper version.  I'm not saying that this practice of limiting the number of devices is right or wrong, but authors and publishers have to make money too.  We can't have everything for free.

HOWEVER I do believe that Amazon should make it so that you have a Kindle line, in that if you upgrade to a new version of Kindle, you can somehow tag it to the previous, lesser version and get a one-time freebie download of content to that.  But only with the upgrade.  This would alleviate pretty much everyone's concerns and keep the publishers happy that people aren't just handing out books.

Rachel

[Addie]

HOWEVER I do believe that Amazon should make it so that you have a Kindle line, in that if you upgrade to a new version of Kindle, you can somehow tag it to the previous, lesser version and get a one-time freebie download of content to that.  But only with the upgrade.  This would alleviate pretty much everyone's concerns and keep the publishers happy that people aren't just handing out books.

Rachel

I totally agree with this. This really would ease my mind.

So I seem to be interpreting this whole thing two different ways, and I was wondering which way is the right one.
I'm reading that you can only have up to six devices registered at a time to download the same book. You will not be able to download a book to a seventh device, but you can download and archive the book as many times as you want on your six registered devices.

I'm also reading that you can only download a book six times or less period, depending on the publisher or whoever is making the arbitrary number. So, for example, if you downloaded a book, archived it and did this five more times on the same device, if you tried it one more time, you would be unable to download the book anymore (unless there's intervention by CS or you buy the book again).

Which of these is the concern we have? Sorry this is a dumb question, and I'm all confused. I thought I got it, but I read over the article and all the comments at the article's site and this one again and now I'm confused again. 

[Maxx]

I just did an experiment.  I had a book that I had already read and that was free in my archives.  I downloaded it and archived it 7 times, no problem.  So I don't think there is a limit to the number of  times you can download a book you have purchased.  If there was a limit, I would have a problem with that.  What would be the point of archiving books on Amazon if at some point you no longer have access to them.  If we are unable to download our Amazon purchases at will then that is the best reason yet for folders/tags.

[Addie]

I just did an experiment.  I had a book that I had already read and that was free in my archives.  I downloaded it and archived it 7 times, no problem.  So I don't think there is a limit to the number of  times you can download a book you have purchased.  If there was a limit, I would have a problem with that.  What would be the point of archiving books on Amazon if at some point you no longer have access to them.  If we are unable to download our Amazon purchases at will then that is the best reason yet for folders/tags.

Thanks for doing the experiment! Right now I only have a K2 and an iPod Touch, so I'm thinking I won't have to worry about it then if it's a registration limit.
I would have been really upset if I could only download my books a certain number of times period. I'm one of those who hates leaving read books on her Kindle, but does like to go back occasionally and re-read books.

Hopefully by the time I get that seventh registered device, the problem will be solved!

[rho]

my thinking is that originally they didn't realize how quickly they would come out with new models and that you could read on you iPhone or iTouch too AND that so many of us would be buying new Kindles as they come out and they thought that 6 units would be plenty to last for ages - but I am really hoping that they will work something out now that they know that we will be going over the 6 limit pretty quickly - and isn't Jeff B talking about other devices etc being able to get Kindle books etc  --

I really can't see them advertising you have your whole library archived and at your fingertips if you lose use of the books ...after all that is one of the main selling points... I have 4 more readers to go and I sure am hoping it is fixed by then

[libros_lego]

http://ireaderreview.com/2009/06/20/kindle-misinformation-courtesy-geardiary/

[Athenagwis]

It's not the number of times to download that's limited.  It's the number of devices you can download to.  So you can download the same book 100 times to the same kindle if you want, but you can only download that book to 6 different kindle reading devices.  So if you, your 3 sisters, and mother share an account and you also have a kindle enabled phone and then you you decide to upgrade to the newest version of DX.  If all of you (including your phone) had loaded a book on all 6 of those separate devices, you would NOT be able to load it on your DX, because that would now be a 7th device.  However, you could still download that book as many times as you want to those original 6 devices.  This prevents people from attaching random kindles to their accounts, loading all the books and then deregistering them, thus sharing their library with everyone under the sun. 

This is going to become more of an issue as more new versions of the kindle come out and people upgrade, move books over and start using up these licenses.  If you and your husband share an account, once you go through 3 upgrades, you'd have to rebuy any books that have been on all of those kindles.  This could be in a matter of 6 years or so!  Of course most fiction, you probably wouldn't put on each upgraded kindle, but reference books, textbooks, cook books, travel books etc... most likely would go on all those kindles and with the price of these books being slightly higher, I would be pretty peeved to lose the right to these in under 10 years.

Hope that clarifies the issue.

Rachel

[Meemo]

It's not the number of times to download that's limited.  It's the number of devices you can download to.  So you can download the same book 100 times to the same kindle if you want, but you can only download that book to 6 different kindle reading devices.  So if you, your 3 sisters, and mother share an account and you also have a kindle enabled phone and then you you decide to upgrade to the newest version of DX.  If all of you (including your phone) had loaded a book on all 6 of those separate devices, you would NOT be able to load it on your DX, because that would now be a 7th device.  However, you could still download that book as many times as you want to those original 6 devices.  This prevents people from attaching random kindles to their accounts, loading all the books and then deregistering them, thus sharing their library with everyone under the sun. 

This is going to become more of an issue as more new versions of the kindle come out and people upgrade, move books over and start using up these licenses.  If you and your husband share an account, once you go through 3 upgrades, you'd have to rebuy any books that have been on all of those kindles.  This could be in a matter of 6 years or so!  Of course most fiction, you probably wouldn't put on each upgraded kindle, but reference books, textbooks, cook books, travel books etc... most likely would go on all those kindles and with the price of these books being slightly higher, I would be pretty peeved to lose the right to these in under 10 years.

Hope that clarifies the issue.

Rachel

Actually this is one of the reasons I've chosen not to get the Kindle app on my new iPhone.  We've already got 3 Klassic Kindles and my husband's iPhone on my Kindle account.  Eventually all three of us will probably upgrade.  It's not likely that we'll all be downloading all the same books to all the Kindles, but still - I figure I can read on Stanza or Wattpad on my iPhone, and save that registration for an upgrade down the line. 
I do think if a Kindle has to be returned because it's defective, Amazon should remove that returned Kindle's "tags" from purchased books. 

[Rasputina]

As I've said before, issues like this are what worry me with not only Kindle, but with e-books in general.

I have a Kindle, and I use it every day.  I love it.

That being said, however, I am still not necessarily drawn to the Kindle more than to regular books.  And this is one reason why.  Even now, I have a book I want, and I am having the hardest time deciding whether it is better to buy it on Kindle, or to buy a hardcopy that I know I'll have without any issues for a long, long time.

If I buy a hardcopy book, I have it for the life of the book (and I take good care of mine, so they last a long time).  I don't have to buy a new one if I use up my "limited downloads" on it. 

I would love to see Kindle and e-books succeed, but they have some serious issues they are going to have to figure out first, I think. 

I agree. I just bought some hardbacks of books instead of buying them on K for similar reasons. Some of my ebooks have a limited life for me and that's fine. But the stuff I know will have a long term life I want in DTB. In fact I have a couple books I bought on K that I'm now planning on buying in DTB form for my library so I have it for permanent future use. I do love my K for portability and especially love it for being able to read documents, either I created or have accumulated from various sources, away from the computer but it isn't a substitute for my personal library.

[LauraB]

I only buy ebooks, for any reader, that are one-off reads, or a resource I want with me. I dont worry about the DRM because any book I really want in my library I buy a physical copy. I've always viewed my ereaders as being for the books I only want to read once and then not have to move to dust forever. Guess im just odd. But i've been doing it since the rocketbook and it works for me.  I wouldn't know they have DRM if people didn't make an issue of it. I wonder where the majority of "regular" (non-techie) kindle owners fit in this? 

[Addie]

Thanks to everyone for helping to clarify the issue! 

I only buy ebooks, for any reader, that are one-off reads, or a resource I want with me. I dont worry about the DRM because any book I really want in my library I buy a physical copy. I've always viewed my ereaders as being for the books I only want to read once and then not have to move to dust forever. Guess im just odd. But i've been doing it since the rocketbook and it works for me.  I wouldn't know they have DRM if people didn't make an issue of it. I wonder where the majority of "regular" (non-techie) kindle owners fit in this? 

I'm one of those who usually buys an ebook for the one time read. If I really like it or really need it (like a reference book), I may buy the DTB version, but I still like the idea of being able to download the book again to my Kindle if I get in the mood to re-read. I imagine this restriction won't affect me at all, as I can't recall ever re-reading a book six times and have no real need for reference books. It is unfortunate for those who have large families or have several ereader devices due to upgrades and such, but it's reassuring to know that CS can go ahead and deregister a device to meet your needs. While I'm not in love with the restriction, I understand it and therefore can deal with it. I would imagine most people would feel the same way, but who knows.

[jpmorgan49]

Thanks to everyone who helped clear up this issue....
jp

[tbsteph]

I found the below article on Gear Diary via a story on today's (6/21/09) Gizmodo.  Any thoughts?

http://www.geardiary.com/2009/06/19/kindles-drm-rears-its-ugly-head-and-it-is-ugly/


 
 

[Ssnake51]

I dont worry about the DRM because any book I really want in my library I buy a physical copy. I've always viewed my ereaders as being for the books I only want to read once and then not have to move to dust forever. Guess im just odd. But i've been doing it since the rocketbook and it works for me. 

Doesn't sound odd to me at all.  If one finds a book they really enjoy, why wouldn't they want to own the paper version? 

E-books readers like the Kindle are one very useful tool to help us enjoy the pleasure of reading. 
I see no reason for thinking they can or should replace paper books.  And I think this issue of download limits is just one example illustrating that point. 

[Addie]

We've actually been having that discussion on another thread. 

Here it is: http://www.kindleboards.com/index.php/topic,10242.0.html