The Success of "Just OK" Writing

[mandiS]

I'm 99% sure I know which book you're talking about (the one-hit wonder and different characters' POV clued me in), and to be honest, I thought it was an amazing book. I couldn't put it down. I love switching back and forth between characters, though. I think the mystery that we get from the beginning is probably its selling point. But again, it all goes back to beauty is in the eye of the beholder -- entertainment is in the mind of the reader. A lot of people love literary successes like To Kill a Mockingbird, which I could never get through.

[Terrence OBrien]

"Most readers will not even notice the things we as authors might consider grievous errors."

Until I discovered this forum, I had spent my entire life reading without ever knowing adverbs were bad. Worse, I didn't even notice what I subsequently learned was head-hopping.  I'm so ashamed...

[EllenFisher]

Until I discovered this forum, I had spent my entire life reading without ever knowing adverbs were bad. Worse, I didn't even notice what I subsequently learned was head-hopping.  I'm so ashamed...

I don't think anyone means that if you use the occasional adverb, you're going to hell . But there are certain overusages you may notice as a reader that become grating, even if you don't know exactly why. For example:

"I wanted a Big Mac," she whined tragically.

"Just sit down and eat," he snapped irritably.

"But I've been thinking about a burger and fries all day," she groaned sadly.

"Just shut up and eat your snails!" he growled angrily.

I'm exaggerating for effect, but this sort of overuse of dialogue tags and adverbs is a common problem (and I know because I used to write this way), and it does tend to grate on the reader, whether s/he thinks "excessive adverbs and dialogue tags" or simply thinks, "Man, this book is getting on my last nerve."

[daveconifer]

I'm 99% sure I know which book you're talking about (the one-hit wonder and different characters' POV clued me in), and to be honest, I thought it was an amazing book. I couldn't put it down. I love switching back and forth between characters, though. I think the mystery that we get from the beginning is probably its selling point. But again, it all goes back to beauty is in the eye of the beholder -- entertainment is in the mind of the reader. A lot of people love literary successes like To Kill a Mockingbird, which I could never get through.

I think we need a reveal!  What's the book, OP?

[Coral Moore]

I don't think anyone means that if you use the occasional adverb, you're going to hell . But there are certain overusages you may notice as a reader that become grating, even if you don't know exactly why. For example:

I'm exaggerating for effect, but this sort of overuse of dialogue tags and adverbs is a common problem (and I know because I used to write this way), and it does tend to grate on the reader, whether s/he thinks "excessive adverbs and dialogue tags" or simply thinks, "Man, this book is getting on my last nerve."

I'm with Terrence. Until I started pursuing writing as a career I had no idea adverbs were the devil. LOTS of huge writers use them in exactly the way you say not to. In fact after I started down this path, I picked up a book I had previously read and loved and one of the first things I noticed was how much the author used those adverb dialog tags. Excessively. Annoyingly. Frequently. In just about every line of conversation. The author in question sells millions of books. The book has over 2000 reviews on amazon and an average of 4+ stars, over 1500 of them 5 stars. Tell me again how much readers hate those pesky adverbs?

[EllenFisher]

Tell me again how much readers hate those pesky adverbs?

Like anything else, if you tell a good story, people may overlook lots of flaws. Nora Roberts headhops, and it hasn't hurt her sales one bit. But I'd prefer to err on the side of caution and keep my writing as headhop- and adverb-free as possible, personally, because alas, I am not Nora Roberts. Yet, anyway.

[jnfr]

I think Red Adept doesn't review books they edit. At least that's what I recall from other threads. So their "select" seal wouldn't be a conflict of interest.

[Coral Moore]

Like anything else, if you tell a good story, people may overlook lots of flaws. Nora Roberts headhops, and it hasn't hurt her sales one bit. But I'd prefer to err on the side of caution and keep my writing as headhop- and adverb-free as possible, personally, because alas, I am not Nora Roberts. Yet, anyway.

I agree with you about the adverbs and the head hopping, but I think by and large most readers don't care. In fact, the more readers I've interacted with, (pure readers now, not reader/writers) the more I've realized that even words like "well-written" are subjective. One reader can say that something is wonderfully written and the very next one will say how terrible the writing was. It's only one book, how can it be both?

I just think it's dangerous for us to run around labeling things as "just ok" from our perspective as if we're somehow authorities on the matter. I can say whatever I like about any author's writing, famous or not, and someone will disagree with me.

[Kevis 'The Berserker' Hendrickson]

I think Red Adept doesn't review books they edit. At least that's what I recall from other threads. So their "select" seal wouldn't be a conflict of interest.

You're absolutely right. RA doesn't review the same books they edit. Glad you mentioned it.

[DRMarvello]

Speaking of seals of approval, did any of you notice Red Adept's new "seal"?

Actually, I'm not bothered by that particular seal of approval because they aren't trying to define a "standard" for all books. They state right up front that the selections are the best of genre as voted by their own staff. They are welcome to their opinion, and I'll either perk up and pay attention or ignore it completely, depending upon my feelings about Red Adept reviews in general.

What I don't want to see is any organization trying to create an industry-wide seal of approval that implies any book not having it is trash. Something like that would be right up WD's alley, and you know it would ultimately just be a profit scheme.

[ETS PRESS]

It does make sense that as writers we are more aware of inconsistencies and errors in books that we read. We read like writers. That's a good thing because it helps us to become better writers. I think the difference boils down between deep readers with a higher sense of awareness about craft, and enjoyment readers who do not pay attention to the craft of writing. They are in it for the story, and they don't give a fig about adverbs. And there we have it: inconsistencies in reviews. There is also the matter of personal tastes, life experiences, subject matter, and connections to the text. We must also consider comprehension. Some readers will comprehend the book at a much deeper level than other readers. The strength of a readers ability to comprehend the book effects their reactions as well.

It's been awhile since I've read a Nora Roberts book. She creates complicated plots, and does an excellent job of creating mental images in the reader's mind. I cannot read her books before I go to bed. I'd never get any sleep. I'm not comfortable with a lot of her graphic content.

I'm a happy ending kind of girl. One Nicholas Sparks book, and I was done. How can you kill off the hero?

I've read Stephen King's book On Writing, but I will never, ever read one of his books. No. Way.

I absolutely loved The Tea Rose by Jennifer Donnelly, but I had more than one friend return it to me saying that they couldn't get into it. Go figure.

So yes, tastes account for a lot. 

[Gutman]

This is what makes horse racing.

Which is why I tend to skip threads that include rants on the low quality of some books.  Who cares? 

[ETS PRESS]

This is what makes horse racing.

Which is why I tend to skip threads that include rants on the low quality of some books.  Who cares? 

There is a big difference between ranting and pondering.

[Edward M. Grant]

I've read Stephen King's book On Writing, but I will never, ever read one of his books. No. Way.

You should, if only to study how he keeps readers turning pages. The Stand, for example, is about 15,000 pages long, but I finished it in two days because he kept me wanting to see what would happen and even the hokey ending didn't spoil it.

(OK, I admit, 15,000 pages is probably an exagerration unless he's released a new extra-extended version. But it felt like that at the time.)

[Gutman]

There is a big difference between ranting and pondering.

I agree.  And I'm not talking about this thread. 

[Monique]

I think Red Adept doesn't review books they edit. At least that's what I recall from other threads. So their "select" seal wouldn't be a conflict of interest.

I find it icky. I'm talking about reviews, but the "seal" of approval. Putting a seal of approval on things you've worked on is silly, imho.

[jackz4000]

I agree with you about the adverbs and the head hopping, but I think by and large most readers don't care. In fact, the more readers I've interacted with, (pure readers now, not reader/writers) the more I've realized that even words like "well-written" are subjective. One reader can say that something is wonderfully written and the very next one will say how terrible the writing was. It's only one book, how can it be both?

I just think it's dangerous for us to run around labeling things as "just ok" from our perspective as if we're somehow authorities on the matter. I can say whatever I like about any author's writing, famous or not, and someone will disagree with me.

Much of what writers fuss and fret about is stuff that most readers don't know about or care about. The writer should be writing for readers--not writers and he is handicapped because he/she thinks like a writer. There are many extremely popular books that writers will dismiss as poorly written for whatever reasons pooh-pooh. "I write better than that writer..."

Despite the writing problems--the readers have no big problem reading it. Why? Probably because it's a great story that engages the reader and all the little things authors may use as their judgmental criteria means squat because most readers want a good story. Whether or not there were too many adverbs? Who cares? Story is #1.

Most people read at the 8th grade level. Do you really think they are all going to read and really enjoy a literary masterpiece.

@ETS: The guy you spoke (has different handles) of has posted his "good a'nuf" posts on plenty of forums the last few months. He is probably more right than wrong. Oh! Stephen King? You should read a few of his books--they are not all horror stories and he knows how to write so the reader is engrossed.

[EllenFisher]

I find it icky. I'm talking about reviews, but the "seal" of approval. Putting a seal of approval on things you've worked on is silly, imho.

So the "seal" is something they put on every book they edit? In that case, I wouldn't think it was a "seal of approval" so much as a guarantee of quality-- i.e., "we edited this and stand behind it." 

[ETS PRESS]

Stephen King has a book that won't scare me?

[jackz4000]

I find it icky. I'm talking about reviews, but the "seal" of approval. Putting a seal of approval on things you've worked on is silly, imho.

Seals? Icky? I rather like seals and wish I could swim like one, if only for a day. Walmart is now awarding many of the products it sells the Walmart Seal of Approval. I think more retailers will join in to this sham.

[ellenoc]

Don't you think that as writers, we tend to read with an editor's eye? I do and it bugs me that I do it. I want to read for the pleasure of the story, but I can't turn that part of my brain off.

This is the biggest negative of writing for me. I've lost my ability to just read and enjoy without noticing things like head hopping, and that critical eye spoils some books I used to enjoy. I read a book by one of my favorite authors yesterday and stopped and stared at "ejaculated" used as a dialog tag. (Kindle Location 88 in Nevada Barr's "The Rope" in case anyone is curious). There are so many bestsellers that have all the elements that writing gurus tell us make a book "bad" that one has to wonder. More and more I've come to the conclusion that the difference between competent writing and superb writing doesn't matter to the vast majority (including me). Story and character do.

[SimonSmithWilson]

A family member of mine loves sci-fi war type books. I can't think of the series title, but he gets the audio versions, which I do end up listening to when we have to share a long car trip. He thinks they are amazing. I think they are full of plot holes and make no sense. I think the writing style is overly complicated and hard to follow, but its just different people. To me I think the writer is lazy, but I am guessing if he read one of my books he would think the exact same thing. It is just different methods of telling a story, constructing a story and different writers focus on different details. And readers are the same. They like certain styles and don't like other styles.

[Monique]

So the "seal" is something they put on every book they edit? In that case, I wouldn't think it was a "seal of approval" so much as a guarantee of quality-- i.e., "we edited this and stand behind it."  

It's not given to all of them and it's not a "we did this" seal. It's given to select books that are deemed "outstanding in genre".

[Kathleen Valentine]

I think we need a reveal!  What's the book, OP?

I agree!

[jackz4000]

Stephen King has a book that won't scare me?

Here's a couple mild stories:

Black House (fantasy)
Blaze (thriller/mystery)
The Colorado Kid (mystery)
Different Seasons (drama)
Dolores Claiborne (drama)
The Dark Tower series (fantasy)
The Dome (thriller)
Eyes of the Dragon (fantasy)
The Green Mile (drama)
Girl who Loved Tom Gordon (thriller/drama)
Hearts in Atlantis (drama)
The Long Walk (thriller)
Rage (thriller)
Roadwork (thriller)
The Running Man (thriller)
The Talisman (fantasy)