DRUMS OF AUTUMN: Week of 6/22, Reading Chps 30-41, Discuss Chps 19-29 here

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

Here we go.  Sorry about the mixup in chapter selections, and about being so late.  It seems summer is even more hectic than the school year.   

Chapters 30-41 for this week (Part Eight and Nine)

Here are this week's questions.

Part Seven
On the Mountain
Chps. 19-29

1.  What did you think of Jamie’s offer to Duncan?  How do you think Jocasta will take to him acting for her?

2.  What did you think of Nayawenne’s dream as it relates to Claire? 

   “She says you must not be troubled; sickness is sent from the gods.  It won’t b e your fault.”

3.  What did you think of Jamie and the battle of the roof shingles? 

4.  What do you think of Ian’s friendship with the Indians of Anna Ooka?

5.  What do you think of Jamie’s dream about Brianna’s birthmark?

6.  Roger finds an article about Jamie and Claire’s death by fire.  Do you think he did the right thing by destroying it and keeping it from Brianna?

7.  What did you think when Claire left the Mueller’s in the middle of a storm?

8.  Discuss Claire’s “ghostly” visitor.  Do you think it was the man who’s skull Claire found?

9.  What was your reaction when Claire found the skull had fillings in his teeth?

10.  What was your first reaction when Willie showed up on the Ridge?

11.  Why do you think John brought him there?

12.  Ian obviously sees the strong resemblance between Jamie and Willie?  What do you think was going through his mind at the time?

13.  What did you think when Jamie punched Willie in the stomach? 

14.  How did you feel about Willie and Jamie’s fishing trip?

15.  Can you “clickit with needles?”

16.  When the pastor came to the cabin to warn Claire, what did you think Herr Mueller intended to do? 

17.  Now we know what Nayawenne meant by her words to Claire.  Do you think Claire will find some comfort in that?

18.  When Jamie came to the Indian village, did you think the Muellers had destroyed it? 

19.  How do you feel about Mueller’s taking his revenge out on Nayawenne, Gabrielle and Berthe?  Considering the superstitious times, was it understandable, though not justified by today’s standards?

[danfan]

Oh I'm not the only one too busy to get here then. My assistant is on vacation so I am doing her workload too.    But my Dh just said he's cooking dinner YEAH! So I have a few minutes...


Part Seven
On the Mountain
Chps. 19-29

1.  What did you think of Jamie’s offer to Duncan?  How do you think Jocasta will take to him acting for her?

I was surprised at first as Jamie could do with someone truly loyal, But seems like a good solution to getting Jocasta off his back/ not letting her down, and I would think she'd be all for it as long as she's really controlling the reins.

2.  What did you think of Nayawenne’s dream as it relates to Claire?

   “She says you must not be troubled; sickness is sent from the gods.  It won’t b e your fault.”
That a sickness would come to someone she loves and she can't do anything about it but she mustn't blame herself.

3.  What did you think of Jamie and the battle of the roof shingles?
I'd have stuck a bucket under the leak til morning.

4.  What do you think of Ian’s friendship with the Indians of Anna Ooka?
I think it suits Ian's personality & adventurous spirit to get to know the Indians and develop friendships.

5.  What do you think of Jamie’s dream about Brianna’s birthmark?
That gave me a lump in my throat. I've been desperate for Jamie to meet Brianna!  Does he have a dream link to his future or to the future that's beyond the stones?

6.  Roger finds an article about Jamie and Claire’s death by fire.  Do you think he did the right thing by destroying it and keeping it from Brianna?
NNNOOOOOO!!!! I understand why but noooooo!

7.  What did you think when Claire left the Mueller’s in the middle of a storm?
Very Claire thing to do. Wants to get home after days away, thinks she can make it...

8.  Discuss Claire’s “ghostly” visitor.  Do you think it was the man who’s skull Claire found?
I don't believe in ghosts. I read ghost stories and can suspend belief while I read them so actually enjoy them, but when they crop up in other stories, I think "ummmmmm". So I struggled with that story line.
Yes, I did think it was the skull-man.


9.  What was your reaction when Claire found the skull had fillings in his teeth?
Another traveller. How many are there? Which one is he? What was he doing there of all places?

10.  What was your first reaction when Willie showed up on the Ridge?
uh-oh there will be trouble. How will Claire react seeing him face to face?  How will Willie react if he recognizes Jamie?

11.  Why do you think John brought him there?
I assumed he needed some kind of help for Willie but no idea what.

12.  Ian obviously sees the strong resemblance between Jamie and Willie?  What do you think was going through his mind at the time?
Ian guessed but knew better than to say anything!

Can't remember much about the visit so skipping those questions.


15.  Can you “clickit with needles?”
Nope/ I loved Jamie's question:
“You can knit?”
“Well, of course I can,” he said, staring at me in puzzlement. “I’ve known how to clickit wi’ needles since I was seven years old. Do they not teach bairns anything in your time?”

16.  When the pastor came to the cabin to warn Claire, what did you think Herr Mueller intended to do?
I thought he'd gone crazy and was ready to attack anyone in sight.


17.  Now we know what Nayawenne meant by her words to Claire.  Do you think Claire will find some comfort in that?
Yes & No. Yes, because it was predestined. No, because she always thinks she could do something more.

18.  When Jamie came to the Indian village, did you think the Muellers had destroyed it?
Yes, probably.

19.  How do you feel about Mueller’s taking his revenge out on Nayawenne, Gabrielle and Berthe?  Considering the superstitious times, was it understandable, though not justified by today’s standards?

Horrifying! No, it didn't think it was completely understandable but then I find it hard to get my brain around any of those old superstitions. It seems fine for some people to chant charms and collect things for luck, but if they didn't like you they'd burn you. So I think most of the superstitions just seemed to be convenient excuses to kill whoever you didn't like.
Granted, Herr Muellers actions were much more than that - he was filled with grief and rage & I think it was purely revenge which wasn't justified at all. No more acceptable than if one of the Native Americans had actually murdered his family.

[vg]

I'm scrolling down this thread peeking between my fingers so that I don't see any spoilers 

Just wanted to check in with everyone -   I got behind on my reading and am still finishing up Voyager while reading all of your posts.  Just wanted to say how I am enjoying seeing what was written and how it truly adds to the story.  If only I could send you all back in time to be with me so I could be in on all the fun!  Oh, well, maybe by the next book.....

[danfan]

I'm scrolling down this thread peeking between my fingers so that I don't see any spoilers 

Just wanted to check in with everyone -   I got behind on my reading and am still finishing up Voyager while reading all of your posts.  Just wanted to say how I am enjoying seeing what was written and how it truly adds to the story.  If only I could send you all back in time to be with me so I could be in on all the fun!  Oh, well, maybe by the next book.....

VG - go ahead and post to the old threads. I'm quite sure some of us would come join you!  I started the books when the Klub was on Voyager but I read a lot faster so finished all 6 a couple of weeks ago, so I have to dig through my memory for the discussions.

[Anju No. 469]

Part Seven
On the Mountain
Chps. 19-29

1.  What did you think of Jamie’s offer to Duncan?  How do you think Jocasta will take to him acting for her?

Since she can't have Jamie - a purebred Scot will probably do quite well.


2.  What did you think of Nayawenne’s dream as it relates to Claire? 

   “She says you must not be troubled; sickness is sent from the gods.  It won’t b e your fault.”
I thought it might have something to do with smallpox or some other epidemic

3.  What did you think of Jamie and the battle of the roof shingles? 
Pretty stupid, good way to figure it out, but in the middle of the night?

4.  What do you think of Ian’s friendship with the Indians of Anna Ooka?
He had a fascination with the indians before he left Scotland.

5.  What do you think of Jamie’s dream about Brianna’s birthmark?
Still have not figured that out yet.

6.  Roger finds an article about Jamie and Claire’s death by fire.  Do you think he did the right thing by destroying it and keeping it from Brianna?
Wrong and dumb, particularly from an intelligent person.

7.  What did you think when Claire left the Mueller’s in the middle of a storm?

I can understand her wanting to get home, but it was not the smartest thing to do.

8.  Discuss Claire’s “ghostly” visitor.  Do you think it was the man who’s skull Claire found?
Definitely

9.  What was your reaction when Claire found the skull had fillings in his teeth?
oops - another time traveler, where did he come from?

10.  What was your first reaction when Willie showed up on the Ridge?
uh oh - is he going to remember?  I was not worried about the resemblance because there were not an abundance of mirrors then.

11.  Why do you think John brought him there?
John wanted to come and Willie just happened to be with him.

12.  Ian obviously sees the strong resemblance between Jamie and Willie?  What do you think was going through his mind at the time?
Ian is not stupid, probably figured out he was somehow related, not necessarily a son.

13.  What did you think when Jamie punched Willie in the stomach? 
the brat needed it

14.  How did you feel about Willie and Jamie’s fishing trip?

good bonding between them, and it could just be because Willie's "father" was not a fisherman

15.  Can you “clickit with needles?”
yep

16.  When the pastor came to the cabin to warn Claire, what did you think Herr Mueller intended to do? 
some kind of harm to Claire

17.  Now we know what Nayawenne meant by her words to Claire.  Do you think Claire will find some comfort in that?

definitely

18.  When Jamie came to the Indian village, did you think the Muellers had destroyed it? 
yes and I think Jamie thought so as well

19.  How do you feel about Mueller’s taking his revenge out on Nayawenne, Gabrielle and Berthe?  Considering the superstitious times, was it understandable, though not justified by today’s standards?
even then it was not a good thing to attack females, but these happened to be savages so it was ok - in Mueller's opinion

[imallbs]

As usuall I have not read the whole thing yet so I'm being very careful not to read to far down the list of questions.  But here's what I think so far...

Part Seven
On the Mountain
Chps. 19-29

1.  What did you think of Jamie’s offer to Duncan?  How do you think Jocasta will take to him acting for her?
Jamie needed someone he could trust to help his aunt; honor required it.  I thought it was a pretty good way for him to get what he wanted and give Jocasta the help she needed.  I think Jocasta will be glad for the help and grateful to Jamie for setting it up.

2.  What did you think of Nayawenne’s dream as it relates to Claire? 
   “She says you must not be troubled; sickness is sent from the gods.  It won’t b e your fault.”
I figure it will be one of those epidemics that decimates the Indians.  Claire being Claire will blame herself for not doing enough, not seeing something or remembering something or because she doesn’t have the right medicines….
How hard must it be for Claire to see things that are so treatable and know she has the skills to treat them but not the tools?

3.  What did you think of Jamie and the battle of the roof shingles? 
Stubborn Scot and very male.

4.  What do you think of Ian’s friendship with the Indians of Anna Ooka?
I wouldn’t be surprised if Ian ended up being like Meyers or living with the Anna Ooka

5.  What do you think of Jamie’s dream about Brianna’s birthmark?
It took him a lot of Brianna's life to have that dream.  I wonder what is means.  Is Brianna coming to terms with being Jamie’s daughter and wants to know him and him to know her?  Is she somehow sending herself to him in the dream?

6.  Roger finds an article about Jamie and Claire’s death by fire.  Do you think he did the right thing by destroying it and keeping it from Brianna?
He had his reasons and they were well thought out.  I do not think he realized how much his fear of losing Brianna played into his decision.  I hope that when she finds out (and there is no way she isn’t going to find out) that it doesn’t do too much damage to their relationship.

7.  What did you think when Claire left the Mueller’s in the middle of a storm?
It seemed safe enough to her.  She had no way to know the trail would wash out.  I know I’ve done equally stupid things in rain storms when all I wanted was to get home.   

8.  Discuss Claire’s “ghostly” visitor.  Do you think it was the man who’s skull Claire found?
I don’t know.  She found something else there too didn’t she?  Maybe that was what brought the specter.  Except she found the skull and rock (or whatever) after the ghost took her shoes.  Maybe he put those things there for Claire to find.

9.  What was your reaction when Claire found the skull had fillings in his teeth? 
How could he be the ghost?

That’s as far as I’ve read.  I have company so I don’t know when I’ll get the chance to read again so I may not be posting for a week or more.

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

Here we go.  Sorry about the mixup in chapter selections, and about being so late.  It seems summer is even more hectic than the school year.   

Chapters 30-41 for this week (Part Eight and Nine)

Here are this week's questions.

Part Seven
On the Mountain
Chps. 19-29

1.  What did you think of Jamie’s offer to Duncan?  How do you think Jocasta will take to him acting for her?
It was a perfect answer. Jamie had someone he trusted to take care of business, and it would keep him from having to deal with slaves. Jocasta probably won't like her plans being upset, but being a Scot, she will realize the practical aspects. She also knows that Jamie is McKenzie and Lovat, so he has a double portion of wiliness.

2.  What did you think of Nayawenne’s dream as it relates to Claire? 
There will be an epidemic that Claire can't stop, but won't be responsible for starting.

   “She says you must not be troubled; sickness is sent from the gods.  It won’t b e your fault.”

3.  What did you think of Jamie and the battle of the roof shingles? 
Always a practical Scot, take care of business immediately.

4.  What do you think of Ian’s friendship with the Indians of Anna Ooka?
Natural extension of his fascination with the Indians.

5.  What do you think of Jamie’s dream about Brianna’s birthmark?
I think Jamie actually visited Bree, just like his visit to Claire in the beginning of Outlander.

6.  Roger finds an article about Jamie and Claire’s death by fire.  Do you think he did the right thing by destroying it and keeping it from Brianna?
He did what he thought was right, but Bree will not appreciate it. She needs to know as much as possible.

7.  What did you think when Claire left the Mueller’s in the middle of a storm?
Claire had a knack for leaping without looking. I can understand her wanting to get home, but she should have used a little more common sense.

8.  Discuss Claire’s “ghostly” visitor.  Do you think it was the man who’s skull Claire found?
It definitely was the owner of the skull she found. At least he was helpful, because I think that he took her shoes to the cabin and led Rollo back to Claire

9.  What was your reaction when Claire found the skull had fillings in his teeth?
Another time traveler. But what happened to him?

10.  What was your first reaction when Willie showed up on the Ridge?
Shock. Claire never expected to actually meet Jamie's son.

11.  Why do you think John brought him there?
I think he wanted to give Jamie a chance to see his son, but also maybe to rub Claire's face in the fact that he "shared" a child with Jamie just  like she did.

12.  Ian obviously sees the strong resemblance between Jamie and Willie?  What do you think was going through his mind at the time?
He is wondering where the mother is and what happened while Jamie was in England.

13.  What did you think when Jamie punched Willie in the stomach? 
Kind of a hard way to get Willie's attention, but it worked.

14.  How did you feel about Willie and Jamie’s fishing trip?
This was a father-son memory that Jamie would always treasure.

15.  Can you “clickit with needles?”
No. I learned how about 30 years ago, but didn't like it.

16.  When the pastor came to the cabin to warn Claire, what did you think Herr Mueller intended to do?
I thought he would blame Claire or Jamie and was wanting to kill them.

17.  Now we know what Nayawenne meant by her words to Claire.  Do you think Claire will find some comfort in that?
No, she will feel like she should have been able to help.

18.  When Jamie came to the Indian village, did you think the Muellers had destroyed it? 
That was my first thought. That he had taken revenge.

19.  How do you feel about Mueller’s taking his revenge out on Nayawenne, Gabrielle and Berthe?  Considering the superstitious times, was it understandable, though not justified by today’s standards?
I was sick at the idea of it. But, it is understandable because of the times and beliefs.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

Good thinking about the dream.  It was more of a visitation than a dream.  In Bree's time, Jamie is actually dead and a ghost. 

Yes, John did want to rub Claire's face in the fact that he shared Jamie's son, but in the end, I think they came to respect each other.  They will both always be jealous, I think. 

I was kind of shocked when Jamie punched Willie in the stomach.  It's one thing to apply a switch to the "seat" of the problem.  It's quite another to punch someone like he did.  He's spanked Willie before, and he's not to old to have a strap taken to his bum. 

Next discussion coming up in a few minutes. 

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

Good thinking about the dream.  It was more of a visitation than a dream.  In Bree's time, Jamie is actually dead and a ghost. 

But wasn't he dead in 1946 when he visited Claire?

[danfan]

But wasn't he dead in 1946 when he visited Claire?

I always assumed he visited Claire as a ghost, but now thinking that he "visited" her like he did Bree... I wonder if it was the same thing for both? I remember in one earlier book him talking about electric lamps? or telephones? He could visualize one but they didn't know how he did it. I wonder if he'd somehow dream-visited Claire in the same way, like visiting as a ghost BUT not as a dead-person ghost because how would he get the knowledge when he's alive in the 18th century? Oh too confusing... NEXT!

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

But wasn't he dead in 1946 when he visited Claire?

Exactly.  I think we're saying the same thing, but maybe getting there in different ways?

[imallbs]

I know we are done with this part but I can't help myself.  I just finished reading this section and I can't help but give my opinions.

10.  What was your first reaction when Willie showed up on the Ridge?
Surprise, shock, disbelief.  What is he doing here and what a Spoiled. Little. Brat.

11.  Why do you think John brought him there?
John wanted to see Jamie and Willie was with him.  I also think he wanted Jamie to get a chance to see his son but that was secondary to John wanting to see Jamie.

12.  Ian obviously sees the strong resemblance between Jamie and Willie?  What do you think was going through his mind at the time?
Ian knew.  He can tell how old Willie is and knows when Jamie was in England – he figured it out.

13.  What did you think when Jamie punched Willie in the stomach?  
Ridiculous!  Assaulting a child?  I didn’t get that one.  It seemed so out of character.  A good old fashioned ___ whooping, maybe but…

14.  How did you feel about Willie and Jamie’s fishing trip?
That was great.  Jamie would have been taking Willie fishing all along if he had raised him.

15.  Can you “clickit with needles?”
I have not been schooled in the age old craft of knitting.  I have tried it and I am sure Jamie and Ian would enjoy watching my ineptness


16.  When the pastor came to the cabin to warn Claire, what did you think Herr Mueller intended to do?  
I thought he was going to try to hurt Claire but could not figure out why.

17.  Now we know what Nayawenne meant by her words to Claire.  Do you think Claire will find some comfort in that?
Some comfort yes, but she'll still blame herself.

18.  When Jamie came to the Indian village, did you think the Muellers had destroyed it? 
Yes

19.  How do you feel about Mueller’s taking his revenge out on Nayawenne, Gabrielle and Berthe?  Considering the superstitious times, was it understandable, though not justified by today’s standards?
I don’t think murder is understandable in any time.  Many people lost a lot (more then than now) and did not resort to murder.  The story of the flour showed what kind of man Mueller was – a bully and not too bright.

[imallbs]

5.  What do you think of Jamie’s dream about Brianna’s birthmark?
I think Jamie actually visited Bree, just like his visit to Claire in the beginning of Outlander.

I had thought that Bree had visited Jamie because of the timing.  Bree seemed to be coming to terms with having Jamie for a father.  She was interested in finding out more about him.  Also, Bree (I assume) can time travel and Jamie can't.  When he was outside Claire's window in Outlander, he was a ghost so he wasn't traveling through time.  He was already there, as a dead guy.  At least that's how I was reading it.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

I know we are done with this part but I can't help myself.  I just finished reading this section and I can't help but give my opinions.

I'm glad you did.

11.  Why do you think John brought him there?
John wanted to see Jamie and Willie was with him.  I also think he wanted Jamie to get a chance to see his son but that was secondary to John wanting to see Jamie.

I think it went a little deeper.  I think he wanted to show Jamie that he owned a part of him ... Willie. 

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

I'm glad you did.

I think it went a little deeper.  I think he wanted to show Jamie that he owned a part of him ... Willie. 

And show Claire as well. I don't think he ever completely got over his jealousy of Claire.

[imallbs]

“You can knit?”
“Well, of course I can,” he said, staring at me in puzzlement. “I’ve known how to clickit wi’ needles since I was seven years old. Do they not teach bairns anything in your time?”

I loved that part. 

I think it went a little deeper.  I think he wanted to show Jamie that he owned a part of him ... Willie. 

And show Claire as well. I don't think he ever completely got over his jealousy of Claire.

I think you are right.  John was trying to show Jamie they stilled had a connection and always would and to rub it in Claire's face a little.

[Toby]

      This is my 5 cents. I think John will always feel like he has a connection with Jamie, even if Willie was not in the picture. Don't forget, he was & I'm guess, still is in love with Jamie. Then when rebuffed by Jamie, he maintained the "friend" status. It seems that there were not alot of "chess playing, talking about books" people that Jamie could talk to & play chess with. Therefore, a friendship was formed. They basically trusted each other.  As for Claire, I think that John wanted Claire to be aware that they both are in Jamie's life, that John is also important to Jamie. We both share a child together...... we are family....

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

      This is my 5 cents. I think John will always feel like he has a connection with Jamie, even if Willie was not in the picture. Don't forget, he was & I'm guess, still is in love with Jamie. Then when rebuffed by Jamie, he maintained the "friend" status. It seems that there were not alot of "chess playing, talking about books" people that Jamie could talk to & play chess with. Therefore, a friendship was formed. They basically trusted each other.  As for Claire, I think that John wanted Claire to be aware that they both are in Jamie's life, that John is also important to Jamie. We both share a child together...... we are family....

Yes, there is more of a bond between Jamie and John than just Willie.  Jamie considers John a close personal friend, even though John would like it to be more.  I think John has accepted that it can never be more. 

[imallbs]

      This is my 5 cents. I think John will always feel like he has a connection with Jamie, even if Willie was not in the picture. Don't forget, he was & I'm guess, still is in love with Jamie. Then when rebuffed by Jamie, he maintained the "friend" status. It seems that there were not alot of "chess playing, talking about books" people that Jamie could talk to & play chess with. Therefore, a friendship was formed. They basically trusted each other.  As for Claire, I think that John wanted Claire to be aware that they both are in Jamie's life, that John is also important to Jamie. We both share a child together...... we are family....

I like John and I think this fits him.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

I like John and I think this fits him.

I particularly like John in this week's reading.  He's certainly changed and grown since that 16 year old boy in the woods at Carryarrick.