DRUMS OF AUTUMN: Week of 7/6; Reading Chpt 51 to End; Discuss Chps 42-50 here

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

Let's finish up the book this week.  If I'm pushing you too hard, tell me and I'll slow down.  I just want to stay on track to finish the rest of the series by the time Echo is released.  We'll have to do about 200 pages a week. 

Let me know what you think and I'll go by the majority.  So many of us have already read the series that it's easy for us to read a lot. 

Here are this week's questions.

Part Ten-- Drums of Autumn
"Impaired Relations"
Chapter 42-50

1.  How did you feel about Jamie bringing violets to Faith? 

2.  Why do you think neither Jamie nor Claire tols the other of their visits to Faith’s grave? 

3.  Discuss the ramifications of Bree’s pregnancy as it relates to Jamie, Claire, Ian, Roger and Bree.

4.  How did you feel about Stephen Bonnet raping Briana?  Did you think Bree was foolish to go on board the Gloriana?  Do you think the child is his or Roger’s?

5.  How did you feel about what Jamie and Ian did to Roger?  Do you think Jamie would have reacted differently to him if Roger had told him they were handfasted? 

6.  Jamie finally speaks of the battle at Culloden and of what he remembers of Jack Randall there. Do you think Jamie killed him? Is Jamie’s forgiveness of Randall surprising to you, or is it time for forgiveness?

7.  Do you think Bree could kill Bonnet?  Do you think it would make a difference to her?

8.  What did you think of Jamie’s demonstration to Bree of how helpless she was against a determined man?

9.  Do you think Claire could have brought herself to perform an abortion on Bree? 

10.  If she did, what do you think the consequences would be for her relationship with Jamie?

11.  What did you think of Ian’s proposal to Bree and her reaction to it?

12.  How did you feel about Jamie giving Roger to the Iroquois?

13.  What do you think was going through Jamie’s mind when he learned it was Bonnet who had raped Bree?

14.  Which scenes are more vividly real to you, the long awaited meeting of Jamie and Brianna, their intimate talks, or their heated arguments?

[Anju No. 469]

Hoo boy!

1.  How did you feel about Jamie bringing violets to Faith?
  I did not know he even knew where she was - rather touching though

2.  Why do you think neither Jamie nor Claire told the other of their visits to Faith’s grave?
to not upset the other if they had not gone

3.  Discuss the ramifications of Bree’s pregnancy as it relates to Jamie, Claire, Ian, Roger and Bree.
hmm have to think about this one

4.  How did you feel about Stephen Bonnet raping Briana?  Did you think Bree was foolish to go on board the Gloriana?  Do you think the child is his or Roger’s?
Bree being a modern girl probably had thoughts of gentlemenly behavior in that time frame and felt safe going on board - Bonnet probably figured that was what she wanted no matter what she said - and - his crew was aware of what was going on so to save face - - -


5.  How did you feel about what Jamie and Ian did to Roger?  Do you think Jamie would have reacted differently to him if Roger had told him they were handfasted?
They had no idea who he really was only what the handmaiden told them and they felt justified in their reaction.  Probably would not have believed him if he had told them they were handfasted.

6.  Jamie finally speaks of the battle at Culloden and of what he remembers of Jack Randall there. Do you think Jamie killed him? Is Jamie’s forgiveness of Randall surprising to you, or is it time for forgiveness?
I think Jamie probably did kill Randall, but he feels it is time for forgiveness, particularly since the so and so is no longer around.

7.  Do you think Bree could kill Bonnet?  Do you think it would make a difference to her?
no and no

8.  What did you think of Jamie’s demonstration to Bree of how helpless she was against a determined man?
she needed to be shown no matter how strong she thinks she is, she is no match to a man who lives by strength in that time frame

9.  Do you think Claire could have brought herself to perform an abortion on Bree?
no


10.  If she did, what do you think the consequences would be for her relationship with Jamie?
If Bree asked for it, and if she was ok, maybe it would be acceptable, but I really doubt it, things would be strained and the series would end sooner than it has.

11.  What did you think of Ian’s proposal to Bree and her reaction to it?
It was very sweet, and she acted accordingly (I think I don't remember for sure)

12.  How did you feel about Jamie giving Roger to the Iroquois?
Well he didn't the other indians did, but it was not very nice to give him to any indians, at least he was not killed that would have messed up the geneology.

13.  What do you think was going through Jamie’s mind when he learned it was Bonnet who had raped Bree?
why did he not kill him when he had the opportunity

14.  Which scenes are more vividly real to you, the long awaited meeting of Jamie and Brianna, their intimate talks, or their heated arguments?
probably the arguments since that is the way Jamie was to his sister

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

Part Ten-- Drums of Autumn
"Impaired Relations"
Chapter 42-50

1.  How did you feel about Jamie bringing violets to Faith?
I thought it was sweet and sad. 

2.  Why do you think neither Jamie nor Claire tols the other of their visits to Faith’s grave?
I think each felt responsible for Faith's death, but did not want the other to feel guilty about her death. 

3.  Discuss the ramifications of Bree’s pregnancy as it relates to Jamie, Claire, Ian, Roger and Bree.
Jamie would finally get to watch a child of his grow up, even though it is a grandchild. This made him want to keep Bree with him even more. Claire was terrified that Bree or the baby could die in that time. Ian would have, I think offered to marry Bree on his own. The baby could either bring Roger and Bree closer or tear them apart.

4.  How did you feel about Stephen Bonnet raping Briana?  Did you think Bree was foolish to go on board the Gloriana?  Do you think the child is his or Roger’s?
I was horrified for Bree, but it seemed in character for Bonnet. Bree has no idea how life is during this time. She comes from a time when women are demanding equal rights, and are treated as people. In this time period, women are viewed a possessions. I hope it is Roger's, but it could be either.

5.  How did you feel about what Jamie and Ian did to Roger?  Do you think Jamie would have reacted differently to him if Roger had told him they were handfasted? 
Poor Roger, he had already endured a lot just to find Bree. I think Jamie would have forced him to marry Bree if he knew they were handfast.

6.  Jamie finally speaks of the battle at Culloden and of what he remembers of Jack Randall there. Do you think Jamie killed him? Is Jamie’s forgiveness of Randall surprising to you, or is it time for forgiveness?
I do think Jamie is the one who killed Randall, but it is something he will never actually remember. It is definitely time for Jamie to forgive, just so he can get on with his life. Bree's comments about killing her rapist brought this idea home to Jamie. He realized he had to face what happened to him.

7.  Do you think Bree could kill Bonnet?  Do you think it would make a difference to her?
I don't think she could kill him. The difference it would make would be in how she viewed herself. I am not sure she could deal with having killed someone.

8.  What did you think of Jamie’s demonstration to Bree of how helpless she was against a determined man?
It seemed brutal, but Bree was so strong-willed, I don't think Jamie could have made her see the truth any other way.

9.  Do you think Claire could have brought herself to perform an abortion on Bree?
No, I don't think she could actually do it. An abortion was a very risky job then. 

10.  If she did, what do you think the consequences would be for her relationship with Jamie?
I don't think Jamie would have been able to forgive her for killing a child. To him, it was very black and white. He knew the risks of childbirth, but that was the only way he knew.

11.  What did you think of Ian’s proposal to Bree and her reaction to it?
It was so sweet, and I think he would have done his best to take care of her. Bree is showing again her lack of understanding of the time she is in. Being a single mother would have ruined all of them and brought shame. She is still thinking in the 20th century.

12.  How did you feel about Jamie giving Roger to the Iroquois?
It was better than killing him. Jamie could not kill in cold blood.

13.  What do you think was going through Jamie’s mind when he learned it was Bonnet who had raped Bree?
He is blaming himself for helping Bonnet escape in Charleston and then not killing him when he had the chance when Bonnet robbed him.

14.  Which scenes are more vividly real to you, the long awaited meeting of Jamie and Brianna, their intimate talks, or their heated arguments?
Their talks and their arguments show how much alike they really are. Those seem very real and believable.

[millie34]

Jamie was willing to have Bree marry Bonnet when he found out it was he who raped her.  Why did he not think of having Roger marry her.  I guess that would change the plot too much. 

[imallbs]

1.  How did you feel about Jamie bringing violets to Faith? 
I was surprised but I thought it was sweet.  It was sad that he never got to see her

2.  Why do you think neither Jamie nor Claire told the other of their visits to Faith’s grave? 
It was always something they went through alone.  Even though they talked and moved past it, Faith’s birth and death remain a solitary experience for each of them.

3.  Discuss the ramifications of Bree’s pregnancy as it relates to Jamie, Claire, Ian, Roger and Bree.
This will put a strain on Jamie and Claire’s relationship.  Claire understands that Bree has different values; Jamie does not.  No mater how much Claire loves Jamie, Bree will come first.  I don't see how this will affect Ian but I'm sure it will.
How will Jamie feel when he finds out it was Bonnet? 
He’s bound to blame himself.   No one will be more affected than Bree.  If she keeps the baby will she really have to stay even though she never intended to?  How will she feel if the baby looks like Bonnet?  Even if the baby looks like her, she and Roger both resemble the MacKenzies so how will she ever know who the baby’s father is.

4.  How did you feel about Stephen Bonnet raping Briana?
How do you ever feel about something like that?
Did you think Bree was foolish to go on board the Gloriana?
Bree doesn’t understand the danger’s of this time any more than Claire did when she 1st went back.  She probably thought it was safe with so many people around.  Of course, it was probably foolish in any time.  I remember my mother insisting that I have change for a pay phone when I went out and I understand why mothers want their kids to have cell phones.  There are dangers in any time, and you have to be aware of them.
Do you think the child is his or Roger’s?
I hope it’s Roger’s but it’s probably Bonnet’s.

5.  How did you feel about what Jamie and Ian did to Roger?
Horrible!  Roger…I have nothing to say
Do you think Jamie would have reacted differently to him if Roger had told him they were handfasted? 
Given Jamie's reaction to Fergus and Marsali(sp) I don't think he would have liked it much.  It was really stupid of Roger to respond the way he did.  And being from another time doesn’t explain why he acted that way.  It must be that Highlander stubbornness

6.  Jamie finally speaks of the battle at Culloden and of what he remembers of Jack Randall there. Do you think Jamie killed him?
Yes
Is Jamie’s forgiveness of Randall surprising to you, or is it time for forgiveness? 
I don’t think it is true forgiveness.  He wants it to be.  But if you have to keep forgiving someone over and over, you didn’t really forgive them the 1st time.  I didn’t understand Jamie’s kindness towards Jack Randall when his brother was dying.  Although I still don’t quite buy it, it does make more since with Jamie’s explanation that his attempt at forgiveness was done so he could move on more than for Randall.

7.  Do you think Bree could kill Bonnet?
Depending on the circumstances, yes.  It would take a conscious decision to not kill him.  And she would do it to help herself, not him just as she would have killed him for herself.
Do you think it would make a difference to her?  No

8.  What did you think of Jamie’s demonstration to Bree of how helpless she was against a determined man?  
It was horrible to read even though I knew what he was doing.  It was a very clear demonstration of her powerlessness.  So she learns the rape wasn’t her fault but she lost a sense of control of her own life at the same time.  That had to have been hard for Jamie to do (not just the physical pain) he loves Bree and wants to protect her from pain but he is inflicting it now.

9.  Do you think Claire could have brought herself to perform an abortion on Bree?   Yes

10.  If she did, what do you think the consequences would be for her relationship with Jamie?
Their relationship would have been changed forever as it was by Faith's death but this time I don't think they would get past it.   

11.  What did you think of Ian’s proposal to Bree and her reaction to it?[/
Sweet and funny.  Ian is a man of his time.  Bree’s reaction was a little over the top.  Why doesn’t she tell Jamie she is married?  She considered herself married when she and Roger said their vows.

12.  How did you feel about Jamie giving Roger to the Iroquois?
Arrghhhhhh.  At least he didn’t kill him.

13.  What do you think was going through Jamie’s mind when he learned it was Bonnet who had raped Bree?
Guilt, self loathing

14.  Which scenes are more vividly real to you, the long awaited meeting of Jamie and Brianna, their intimate talks, or their heated arguments?
All of them.  I loved Jamie and Brianna’s  meeting and could see it as I read.  It was one of the most touching of all the scenes in this book…so far. 
Their intimate talks – They knew each other through Claire.  She had told each of them the most intimate things about the other.  It was good to see them getting close.  They also had contact through the dreams which helped their familiarity.
Their heated arguments – Hey, I grew up in a family of stubborn Scots, it feels like home.

If Jamie considers Fergus to be his son (and it appears that he does since he gave Fergus his name) why is he playing such a small role in all of this?

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

I'm making some time to answer this week's questions.  Life has been pretty hectic recently, but I really want to answer.

First, I want to say that when I read Drums, I didn't even finish it.  I hated the book.  I went back and read the whole thing when my daughter bought me The Fiery Cross for Christmas, and I still hated it.  

Reading it this time with you guys has made all the difference, and I think reading on the K has also made a difference.  So a big thanks to everyone who is reading along with me.

Part Ten-- Drums of Autumn
"Impaired Relations"
Chapter 42-50

1.  How did you feel about Jamie bringing violets to Faith?  

I was so touched that he did that.  

2.  Why do you think neither Jamie nor Claire tols the other of their visits to Faith’s grave?  

It seems like they both are holding on to a private grief, afraid to upset the other.

3.  Discuss the ramifications of Bree’s pregnancy as it relates to Jamie, Claire, Ian, Roger and Bree.

Claire wants to protect Bree and so does Jamie.  But Jamie sees "protection" in a different light.  By his standards, his job is to see her safely married to a good man.

In the 18th century, unwed mothers and their children carried an awful stigma.  Ian's feelings toward Briana have to be changed, and in fact, he accuses her of being a whore.  Even so, I feel that he would protect her as well, and beat up anyone else that dared make the same accusation.

Roger now has to make a choice.  Will he accept the child as his no matter what or will he abandon her and go back to the future?  

Bree, of course, is the most affected.  She has to live, not only with the rape, but the results of the rape.  If she can't accept the baby, and Roger doesn't return, she might choose to leave the baby with Jamie and Claire and go back to the future herself.  


4.  How did you feel about Stephen Bonnet raping Briana?  Did you think Bree was foolish to go on board the Gloriana?  Do you think the child is his or Roger’s?

The fact that Bree was raped is bad enough, but for it to be Bonnet, makes it even more horrible.  That has to affect Jamie very badly when he finds out.  

5.  How did you feel about what Jamie and Ian did to Roger?  Do you think Jamie would have reacted differently to him if Roger had told him they were handfasted?  

I was horrified by what they did.  By Jamie's standards, he avenged the wrong done to his daughter.  I think that he should have learned by now that 20th century women are different, and he should also know by now that he could talk to Claire about the whole situation.  Taking Wakefield prisoner and bringing him back to the cabin for Bree to identify as her rapist, would have been the better course of action.  But this is Jamie we're talking about.  He did warn Claire that he was a violent man, and what he did wasn't out of character.  

No, I don't think knowing they were handfasted would have made a difference.  He probably wouldn't have believed Roger anyway.


6.  Jamie finally speaks of the battle at Culloden and of what he remembers of Jack Randall there. Do you think Jamie killed him? Is Jamie’s forgiveness of Randall surprising to you, or is it time for forgiveness?

Yes, I think Jamie killed Randall because of the fact that his body was on top of Jamie.  I also think Randall gave him the bayonet slash to his thigh.

I read somewhere that if you can't forgive and forget, you should forgive every time you remember.  It sounds like that's what Jamie is doing, and each time he does that, he comes out a little bit ahead.  

7.  Do you think Bree could kill Bonnet?  Do you think it would make a difference to her?

If she can't forgive, I think Bree is quite capable of killing Bonnet, but I don't think it will give her any peace.  

8.  What did you think of Jamie’s demonstration to Bree of how helpless she was against a determined man?

That scene horrified me when I first read it.  I was so worried about her losing the baby.  Jamie does have unconventional ways of doing things, like punching Willie in the stomach to get his attention.  

9.  Do you think Claire could have brought herself to perform an abortion on Bree?  
No, I don't think she could.  She was shaking just holding the instruments, and in the back of her mind, she knows that an abortion is even more dangerous in this time than childbirth.  She has to be thinking of the laundress who bled to death after an abortion.

10.  If she did, what do you think the consequences would be for her relationship with Jamie?

I think there would be an irreparable barrier between them.  They've been through a lot and have always been able to find their way back to each other.  This time, there is more at stake.  This is Jamie's grandchild and the only chance he has at acknowledging and raising a child of his own blood. 

11.  What did you think of Ian’s proposal to Bree and her reaction to it?

I just love Wee Ian.  He even cleaned up for it, which was going some way for him.  I think Bree overreacted.  She could have been kinder to Ian, and more understanding of what her father was trying to do for her. 

12.  How did you feel about Jamie giving Roger to the Iroquois?

He said the Iroquois, but it was actually the Tuscarorans and they sold him to the Mohawks.  I believe he thought the Tuscarorans would treat Roger fairly while keeping him prisoner and far away from Bree.  If Roger hadn't run, they might not have sold him to the Mohawks. 

13.  What do you think was going through Jamie’s mind when he learned it was Bonnet who had raped Bree?

Blaming himself for not letting the English hang Bonnet.  I think he let Bonnet go because Gavin Hayes' hanging was too fresh in his mind. 

14.  Which scenes are more vividly real to you, the long awaited meeting of Jamie and Brianna, their intimate talks, or their heated arguments?

I think their meeting was wonderful and touched me deeply.  I'm not sure why Bree accepted Jamie so easily as her Da, so their intimacy is somewhat surprising.  Their arguments are epic Fraser battles.   

[k_reader]

Hi Gertie,

I don't post very often, but have been enjoying reading the discussions.  I was really surprised when you said you didn't like Drums of Autumn when you read it the first 2 times!  I really enjoyed it!  The crazy scene with Roger and Jamie and selling him to the Iroquois was great.... it was frustrating the first time I read it because I was screaming at the kindle.... take him to Bree!  I loved when Young Ian proposed to Bree.  I guess what I liked about this book is seeing them settled on the Ridge and having Bree join the family on the Ridge.  I really liked the expanding of Bree's relationship with her family and Roger.  I thought their wedding night was a little contrived... I wish the author had found a way to make the wedding more legitimate with witnesses or a preacher.  The whole Brianna/Roger/Bonnet paternity thing was a great twist to the story and I really enjoyed Brianna re-discovering her real father on the Ridge.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

Hi Gertie,

I don't post very often, but have been enjoying reading the discussions.  I was really surprised when you said you didn't like Drums of Autumn when you read it the first 2 times! 

I know.  It was painful to confess as much as I love Outlander. 

I really enjoyed it!  The crazy scene with Roger and Jamie and selling him to the Iroquois was great.... it was frustrating the first time I read it because I was screaming at the kindle.... take him to Bree!  I loved when Young Ian proposed to Bree.  I guess what I liked about this book is seeing them settled on the Ridge and having Bree join the family on the Ridge. 

All the things that happened to Roger really upset me.  I think the scene that upset me the most was after Jamie rescued Roger from the Mohawk, he blew up at him and left him to fend for himself out in the wilderness.  He never gave Roger a chance; not from the beginning. 

I really liked the expanding of Bree's relationship with her family and Roger.  I thought their wedding night was a little contrived... I wish the author had found a way to make the wedding more legitimate with witnesses or a preacher.

 

I also felt it was contrived.  I didn't even feel any affection between the two.  Claire didn't want to marry Jamie, and there was more of a connection between those two on their wedding night than Bree and Roger on theirs. 

I'm so glad I can enjoy the book now. 

[imallbs]

First, I want to say that when I read Drums, I didn't even finish it.  I hated the book.  I went back and read the whole thing when my daughter bought me The Fiery Cross for Christmas, and I still hated it. 

I didn't really like the 1st part of this book but I can't say I hated it.  But being busy isn't the only reason I've been behind on the reading.  I found myself skimming parts of the book.  Bree and Roger's wedding night is one of the scenes I skimmed through. 

All the things that happened to Roger really upset me.  I think the scene that upset me the most was after Jamie rescued Roger from the Mohawk, he blew up at him and left him to fend for himself out in the wilderness.  He never gave Roger a chance; not from the beginning. 

Yeah, lay off Roger already.  I like the guy.  Actually, it is the scenes with him after Jamie gave him to the Indians that got me interested in the book.  I couldn't put it down because I wanted to find out what happened to him.  And then they leave Ian with the Mohawk and Roger in the wilderness!.  If it had been a paper book I probably would have thrown it and not picked it up again (at least for a long time).  But I don't throw my Kindle so I kept reading.

It feels like DG didn't really have a plan for this book  - that she was writing it because the series was a money maker.  Maybe that's a little harsh and the rest of the books will be better.

[imallbs]

3.  Discuss the ramifications of Bree’s pregnancy as it relates to Jamie, Claire, Ian, Roger and Bree.

Claire wants to protect Bree and so does Jamie.  But Jamie sees "protection" in a different light.  By his standards, his job is to see her safely married to a good man.

In the 18th century, unwed mothers and their children carried an awful stigma.  Ian's feelings toward Briana have to be changed, and in fact, he accuses her of being a whore.  Even so, I feel that he would protect her as well, and beat up anyone else that dared make the same accusation.

Bree's arrival has really brought out the differences in the way Claire and Jamie think.  Before they could find a way to compromise but neither is willing to compromise what they think is best for Bree.

Bree was a teenager in the 60s but it seems to me that she is being written more as someone from the 80's or 90's than someone who grew up in the 50s and 60s.  There was still plenty of stigmatism to being a single mother in the late 60s and early 70s; not as much but still...

I read somewhere that if you can't forgive and forget, you should forgive every time you remember.  It sounds like that's what Jamie is doing, and each time he does that, he comes out a little bit ahead. 

That is what I was thinking.  You put it so much better than I did.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

Bree was a teenager in the 60s but it seems to me that she is being written more as someone from the 80's or 90's than someone who grew up in the 50s and 60s.  There was still plenty of stigmatism to being a single mother in the late 60s and early 70s; not as much but still...

I'm glad you brought that up.  I meant to point that out myself.  I can see Claire bringing her up to be an independent woman, and I think Frank did his bit to make her self-sufficient (teaching her to shoot and ride).  However, her attitude toward being an unwed mother is at least a decade ahead of her time. 

I also don't like that she's making no attempt to understand the attitudes and morals of the time.  Bree expects the 18th century to adapt to her, not the other way around. 

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

I'm glad you brought that up.  I meant to point that out myself.  I can see Claire bringing her up to be an independent woman, and I think Frank did his bit to make her self-sufficient (teaching her to shoot and ride).  However, her attitude toward being an unwed mother is at least a decade ahead of her time. 

I also don't like that she's making no attempt to understand the attitudes and morals of the time.  Bree expects the 18th century to adapt to her, not the other way around. 

Bree does seem a woman ahead of her real time with some of her views. Her stubbornness about adapting to the 18th century is partly, I think, the Fraser in her. Jamie also tends to lash out without thinking sometimes too. Remember what he did to Roger? Didn't Jamie also tell Claire that Frasers were stubborn as rocks?

Claire seemed to adapt so much better because of her upbringing of being carted around all over the world with Uncle Lamb and then going through the wars. In her travels too, she was probably exposed to more of the views held by the 18th century regarding women, so it was not quite as big a shock to her.

[Anju No. 469]

Good point Padded -

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

Bree does seem a woman ahead of her real time with some of her views. Her stubbornness about adapting to the 18th century is partly, I think, the Fraser in her. Jamie also tends to lash out without thinking sometimes too. Remember what he did to Roger? Didn't Jamie also tell Claire that Frasers were stubborn as rocks?

Absolutely stubborn as rocks.  I guess Bree had to develop her own ways of self-preservation when she lost her father, and then two years later, her mother in a weird twist of fate.  Yes, she's a Fraser Rock and everyone else has to batter themselves against her implacable viewpoint.  Jamie seems much more adaptable.  

Claire seemed to adapt so much better because of her upbringing of being carted around all over the world with Uncle Lamb and then going through the wars. In her travels too, she was probably exposed to more of the views held by the 18th century regarding women, so it was not quite as big a shock to her.

I think Claire also accepted her position because she had Jamie.  She worked to make things better in the ways that she could.  She also had a specific goal; stopping Charles Stuart.  For that, she had to at least play the part.  

[imallbs]

Claire seemed to adapt so much better because of her upbringing of being carted around all over the world with Uncle Lamb and then going through the wars. In her travels too, she was probably exposed to more of the views held by the 18th century regarding women, so it was not quite as big a shock to her.

Yeah, I think Claire's upbringing did help make her a little more flexible but she also made the decision to stay in the 18th century; Bree did not.  It seemed to me that Claire was fighting a lot of the ideas and conventions when she 1st went back but kinda stopped once she made the conscious decision to stay.  At least she picked her battles after that.

Then there is my favorite saying about kids in these books  STUBORN.  LITTLE.  BRAT.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

Then there is my favorite saying about kids in these books  STUBORN.  LITTLE.  BRAT.

I personally like ... Ye wee fiend.

 

[imallbs]

I personally like ... Ye wee fiend.

 

Ha! that 's a good one and more in fitting with the time period.

Off topic (again).  Thanks for explaining the tags thing.  I couldn't write a decent review with the help of a ghost writer but checking tags is something I can do.  I checked yours now I have to go back and check some others.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

Ha! that 's a good one and more in fitting with the time period.

I keep having to suppress the urge to say that to my grandkids when they misbehave, but they'll just look at me like I'm weird.   

Off topic (again).  Thanks for explaining the tags thing.  I couldn't write a decent review with the help of a ghost writer but checking tags is something I can do.  I checked yours now I have to go back and check some others.

Thanks for doing that.  It really does help. 

[danfan]

1. How did you feel about Jamie bringing violets to Faith?
Surprised but really glad he did. I was never really sure how he felt about Faith, what with everything else that had gone on at the time

2.  Why do you think neither Jamie nor Claire tols the other of their visits to Faith’s grave?
Because they never tell each other thine things I think they should!

3.  Discuss the ramifications of Bree’s pregnancy as it relates to Jamie, Claire, Ian, Roger and Bree.
oh gee, how complicated!  Jamie obviously will have a typical 18th century reaction. And if a result of the rape, awful for both Bree and Roger.

4.  How did you feel about Stephen Bonnet raping Briana?  Did you think Bree was foolish to go on board the Gloriana?  Do you think the child is his or Roger’s?
Yes she was foolish. Surely she has enough street smarts to avoid someone like this man. He's wearing her mother's ring & she guesses he has it by force => he's not a very nice man!

5.  How did you feel about what Jamie and Ian did to Roger?  Do you think Jamie would have reacted differently to him if Roger had told him they were handfasted?
I hated every second of reading that. I hate everything that happens to poor Roger! what on earth has he done to deserve any of it?
If Roger had told him, I'm not sure it would have stopped the rage but it may have made him pause just for a moment to think.
I wanted to shake everyone - Lizzie for getting it wrong, Bree & Claire for not mentioning the MacKenzie name in connection with Roger, Jamie for not stopping for a minute to really check...

6.  Jamie finally speaks of the battle at Culloden and of what he remembers of Jack Randall there. Do you think Jamie killed him? Is Jamie’s forgiveness of Randall surprising to you, or is it time for forgiveness?
I hope he'd killed him. And I'm not surprised he learned to forgive. Sometimes it is the only way to find peace.

7.  Do you think Bree could kill Bonnet?  Do you think it would make a difference to her?
No and no.

8.  What did you think of Jamie’s demonstration to Bree of how helpless she was against a determined man?
I was pretty angry at him but knew why he did it.

9.  Do you think Claire could have brought herself to perform an abortion on Bree?
I think maybe she could have, yes.

10.  If she did, what do you think the consequences would be for her relationship with Jamie?
Mixed. I don't think he could have forgiven it, BUT he also was very practical and could perhaps have lived with it if Bree's life were at risk.

11.  What did you think of Ian’s proposal to Bree and her reaction to it?
He's a sweetheart. I hope he finds someone to make him happy.

12.  How did you feel about Jamie giving Roger to the Iroquois?
ARGH!!

13.  What do you think was going through Jamie’s mind when he learned it was Bonnet who had raped Bree?
- why didn't he let Bonnet die?
- OMG what has he done to Roger??  He's gained Bree's trust and love and now THIS??

14.  Which scenes are more vividly real to you, the long awaited meeting of Jamie and Brianna, their intimate talks, or their heated arguments?
I found the meeting a bit disappointing. I loved the Gaelic lessons and remember the fights!

[Toby]

     I started to cry when Bree said "mama" to Claire, when Bree was reunited with her. I loved that scene. Claire had her daughter back.
     Claire does things that amaze me, like trying to swallow her rings & not telling Jamie the story about Roger & his real last name. Why? Maybe just to make story. LOL! The whole time, I wondered where the heck was Roger? Was he dead on the ground? Did the Indians find him & nursed him to health. Also, why didn't Bree tell anyone Roger's real name? I kept asking myself, is this the chapter when I find out? Don't they talk at dinner? It's not like they are watching TV while eating. AGGGGGG!!!
     Ian is just plain adorable, but also a man of his times. He's independant, but also thinks like people at that time about the shame of single mothers. I love the scenes with Rollo. I like Lizzie for Ian. Don't know if that's possible with the class system at that time.
     I wasn't crazy about Roger not telling Bree about her parents dying in the fire. I can  understand Bree's reaction to that. I would have been furious as well.

[danfan]

   
     Claire does things that amaze me, like trying to swallow her rings & not telling Jamie the story about Roger & his real last name. Why? Maybe just to make story. LOL! The whole time, I wondered where the heck was Roger? Was he dead on the ground? Did the Indians find him & nursed him to health. Also, why didn't Bree tell anyone Roger's real name? I kept asking myself, is this the chapter when I find out? Don't they talk at dinner? It's not like they are watching TV while eating. AGGGGGG!!!
     

AGREED!! And since Roger was a MacKenzie of Jamie's family - not some distant unknown MacKenzie but connected to Jamie's uncle - AND they did sometimes talk about the family connections from both times - it was even more frustrating that no-one had once told Jamie that Roger was a MacKenzie!