DRUMS OF AUTUMN: Week of 7/13; Discuss Chs 51-End here

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

I've posted the reading schedule for The Fiery Cross in its own thread.  Since we'll be reading this pretty quickly, I wanted you to have the schedule ahead of time so you can set your own pace. 

This is the end of Drums of Autumn.  What did you think of it overall in comparison with the first three books?

Part Eleven-- Drums of Autumn
"Pas Du Tout"
Chapter 51-62

1.  Were you surprised that Jamie hadn’t killed Roger?  When you first read that Roger was still alive, why did you think Jamie hadn’t killed him?

2.  Do you think the Tuscarorans would have sold Roger to the Mohawk if he hadn’t tried to run away.

3.  When Roger found the standing stones, do you think he should have tried to go through to save himself?

4.  What do you think Jamie meant when he said, “I will bring him home to you, or I will not come back myself.”

5.  Do you think Pollyanne is happy with the Indians?

6.  Why didn’t she tell Jamie about seeing the man at the sawmill (Murchison)?

7.  What did you think of Jamie’s jealousy of Frank and Bree?

8.  Pollyanne was adopted into the Tuscarora tribe.  Why do you think the Mohawk didn’t adopt Roger?

9.  What did you think of Pere Ferigault’s confession?  What purpose did he have in the story?

10.  Once again, Jocasta tries to leave River Run to someone who doesn’t want it.  What do you think is going to happen to the Plantation when she dies?

11.  What did you think of Ulysses story?

12.  What did you think of the story of Otter-Tooth?

13.  What did you think of Bree’s proposal of marriage to John?  Do you think that would have solved her problem? 

14.  How do you think you would have reacted to seeing Jamie lying on the floor beside you if you were Roger?

15.  What did you think of the death of the priest and his lover?

16.  How do you feel about Ian giving up his family and his heritage to stay with the Indians?

17.  Do you think Jamie did the right thing in leaving Roger behind to make up his mind about Bree and the baby?  When you read that, did you think Roger would find his way back to Bree and accept the baby?

18.  Do you think John was right to tell Bree that Bonnet had been captured?  What do you think of her decision to see Bonnet?

19.  Hodgepile and Murchison show up.  Did you think that Hodgepile would play a bigger role after he was snooping around the Ridge?

20.  Why do you think Bonnet came back for Bree?   Why do you think he asked her to go with him?

Part Twelve-- Drums of Autumn
"Je T'Aime"
Chapter 63-71

21.  Jamie isn’t exactly the easiest of fathers-in-law.  If the circumstances were different, do you think he would have accepted Roger?

22.  Did you feel that Roger and Bree established a connection during their night together?

23.  What do you think about Duncan and Jocasta getting married? 

24.  Were you glad to hear from Wee Ian?  What did you think of his letter?

25.  Wait soon enough in this series, and everyone shows up.  How do you think Archie Hayes took the news of his father being hung?  How do you think Jamie felt about meeting him?

26.  What did you think of Frank’s letter to Rev. Wakefield? 

27.  Knowing from the letter that Frank had a heart condition, do you now feel differently about his intention of leaving Claire and taking Bree to England?

GENERAL

In Voyager, Jamie asks Claire, “Will ye risk the man that I am for the sake of the man that I was?”  In Drums of Autumn, he tells her he’s a violent man and not a good man.  After reading this book, do you feel that Jamie has irrevocably changed, and not for the better?  Do you feel that Claire, even though she re-committed herself to him at the sawmill, sometimes has difficulty accepting the man Jamie is now? 

Can any of the second generation of characters (Roger, Bree, Fergus, Marsali, Ian) measure up to Jamie and Claire?

[Anju No. 469]

EGADS Gertie - why didn't you post some questions, and make them difficult 

ok here goes -

1.  Were you surprised that Jamie hadn’t killed Roger?  When you first read that Roger was still alive, why did you think Jamie hadn’t killed him?
I think although I am not sure, but Jamie may have had a feeling that death for this particular person would serve no purpose, or maybe he is tired of "killing" after all he let Bonnet live.

2.  Do you think the Tuscarorans would have sold Roger to the Mohawk if he hadn’t tried to run away.
Yes, they knew Jamie did not want him anywhere near.

3.  When Roger found the standing stones, do you think he should have tried to go through to save himself?
He wanted to find Bree and take her back with him.

4.  What do you think Jamie meant when he said, “I will bring him home to you, or I will not come back myself.”
Guilty conscience and if he could not find Roger he would leave, disappear, go away.

5.  Do you think Pollyanne is happy with the Indians?
definitely

6.  Why didn’t she tell Jamie about seeing the man at the sawmill (Murchison)?
probably so much going on that night did not think about it until later

7.  What did you think of Jamie’s jealousy of Frank and Bree?
predictable

8.  Pollyanne was adopted into the Tuscarora tribe.  Why do you think the Mohawk didn’t adopt Roger?

Pollyanne was a healer, and was needed in the tribe and she was also a little different (skin color for one thing)

9.  What did you think of Pere Ferigault’s confession?  What purpose did he have in the story?
don't remember

10.  Once again, Jocasta tries to leave River Run to someone who doesn’t want it.  What do you think is going to happen to the Plantation when she dies?

11.  What did you think of Ulysses story?
believable and a nice story of that horrible time in our history

12.  What did you think of the story of Otter-Tooth?
I have a feeling he is going to pop up again somewhere along the line - believable though

13.  What did you think of Bree’s proposal of marriage to John?  Do you think that would have solved her problem?
not particularly but she could see the affection John had and probably felt sorry for him.



16.  How do you feel about Ian giving up his family and his heritage to stay with the Indians?
He had a fascination about the red man from his childhood, and he also found a "love" - not surprised at all, he might have even asked to be able to stay.

17.  Do you think Jamie did the right thing in leaving Roger behind to make up his mind about Bree and the baby?  When you read that, did you think Roger would find his way back to Bree and accept the baby?
Probably not a bad idea with all the negative stuff Roger had been going through.

18.  Do you think John was right to tell Bree that Bonnet had been captured?  What do you think of her decision to see Bonnet?
John was probably hoping to get Bree out of the picture.  I think her decision was childish and stupid!

19.  Hodgepile and Murchison show up.  Did you think that Hodgepile would play a bigger role after he was snooping around the Ridge?
Gotta have bad guys to make the good guys good even when they are being bad

20.  Why do you think Bonnet came back for Bree?   Why do you think he asked her to go with him?
He probably felt that he would inherit River Run if Bree went with him.  I think possibly he came back just because he could and his ego would not let him think someone else got the upper hand.

Part Twelve-- Drums of Autumn
"Je T'Aime"
Chapter 63-71

21.  Jamie isn’t exactly the easiest of fathers-in-law.  If the circumstances were different, do you think he would have accepted Roger?

Eventually, but with strong reservations.  No daughter or son is good enough for your children, even now.

22.  Did you feel that Roger and Bree established a connection during their night together?
Yes, but Bree let her immaturity take over, again.

23.  What do you think about Duncan and Jocasta getting married?
She couldn't marry Ulysses and no one else that was acceptable would take her plantation and Duncan was a strong honorable countryman.

24.  Were you glad to hear from Wee Ian?  What did you think of his letter?
Yes and wonderful

25.  Wait soon enough in this series, and everyone shows up.  How do you think Archie Hayes took the news of his father being hung?  How do you think Jamie felt about meeting him?
Hanging was fairly common, and he was probably sad, but Jamie was supposed to find Archie one day anyway so it was easier for him this way.

26.  What did you think of Frank’s letter to Rev. Wakefield?
Wish we had know about this sooner, but then it would have changed the whole story.

27.  Knowing from the letter that Frank had a heart condition, do you now feel differently about his intention of leaving Claire and taking Bree to England?

No I don't feel differently, if he had been open about it maybe, but then the story would not have been the same.

GENERAL

In Voyager, Jamie asks Claire, “Will ye risk the man that I am for the sake of the man that I was?”  In Drums of Autumn, he tells her he’s a violent man and not a good man.  After reading this book, do you feel that Jamie has irrevocably changed, and not for the better?  Do you feel that Claire, even though she re-committed herself to him at the sawmill, sometimes has difficulty accepting the man Jamie is now?

Jamie has not really changed, his life changed and life experiences changed, his basic personality is the same, just sometimes stronger than others.  he has also matured.

Can any of the second generation of characters (Roger, Bree, Fergus, Marsali, Ian) measure up to Jamie and Claire?

No, Roger is a bookish man, Bree is a spoiled immature brat, Fergus didn't meet his potential, Marsali ? (at least she is not like her mother), Ian could probably make a good story on his own, but he is not as "strong" (bullheaded?) as Jamie.  Claire sometimes forgets her upbringing (Uncle Lamb) and does dumb things, but does try to do the best under the circumstances.  Finding true love is difficult anyway and they seem to be a match made for each other.

[danfan]

Will try to remember all this without re-reading again. It's been a while now.

1.  Were you surprised that Jamie hadn’t killed Roger?  When you first read that Roger was still alive, why did you think Jamie hadn’t killed him?
I was VERY glad that he didn't. I was so hoping he hadn't & it would have been a horrible storyline.  I think in the end, Jamie may have had some doubts about what he was doing.

2.  Do you think the Tuscarorans would have sold Roger to the Mohawk if he hadn’t tried to run away.
I assumed that was their plan all along.

3.  When Roger found the standing stones, do you think he should have tried to go through to save himself?
Tough question but no. I don't think he should or would have. Not by himself.

4.  What do you think Jamie meant when he said, “I will bring him home to you, or I will not come back myself.”
He knows just how wrong he was & has to live with the guilt, and couldn't face Bree if he came back without Roger.

5.  Do you think Pollyanne is happy with the Indians?

Yes

6.  Why didn’t she tell Jamie about seeing the man at the sawmill (Murchison)?

7.  What did you think of Jamie’s jealousy of Frank and Bree?
Well that's tough on both of them. He wanted someone to raise & love Brianna, and Frank was a good father to her. OTOH, it's also natural to feel envious of the other man who raised her & now has Bree's love.

8.  Pollyanne was adopted into the Tuscarora tribe.  Why do you think the Mohawk didn’t adopt Roger?
I wouldn't really know why some are adopted, others nor. Marriage and what they can provide, I expect.

9.  What did you think of Pere Ferigault’s confession?  What purpose did he have in the story?
I felt very sad for him. His purpose - I guess to show us what kind of fate Roger could have & to make us more scared for him! AND to make Roger himself terrified, leading him to act on the spur of the moment with awful consequences.

10.  Once again, Jocasta tries to leave River Run to someone who doesn’t want it.  What do you think is going to happen to the Plantation when she dies?
That woman can't give the place away. I understand why Bree didn't want it either but it's also a bit frustrating - here they are, struggling to get set up & there's Jocasta offering a fully running successful business. Without Bree's and Claire's enlightenment about slavery, she must wonder why on earth they wouldn't want it.

11.  What did you think of Ulysses story?
Horrible what happened to him - the double crossing just to make money, and his slave life decided over it.

12.  What did you think of the story of Otter-Tooth?

13.  What did you think of Bree’s proposal of marriage to John?  Do you think that would have solved her problem?
She knew that Josh wouldn't be a threat to her in a forced/arranged marriage. that he'd let her live her life, and get out of the marriage if she wanted.

14.  How do you think you would have reacted to seeing Jamie lying on the floor beside you if you were Roger?
I'd want to throttle him probably.


15.  What did you think of the death of the priest and his lover?
Just horrible.

16.  How do you feel about Ian giving up his family and his heritage to stay with the Indians?
NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

17.  Do you think Jamie did the right thing in leaving Roger behind to make up his mind about Bree and the baby?  When you read that, did you think Roger would find his way back to Bree and accept the baby?
Yes I think he did the right thing if Roger needed it, but I felt he was really too harsh with Roger over it - I mean, the man has just spent months as a prisoner/ slave due to Jamie's mistake & I'm quite sure this was just another blow he had to understand - yet Jamie acted like if he couldn't commit immediately then he was bad for it.
 

18.  Do you think John was right to tell Bree that Bonnet had been captured?  What do you think of her decision to see Bonnet?
Maybe he should have waited until AFTER Bonnet had been hanged, but as much as I cringed about Bree visiting him, I knew she had to do it. I hated what she told him though. Thought that was a huge mistake.

19.  Hodgepile and Murchison show up.  Did you think that Hodgepile would play a bigger role after he was snooping around the Ridge?

20.  Why do you think Bonnet came back for Bree?   Why do you think he asked her to go with him?
I think he's one of those sickos that thinks his victim is actually happy about what he did, and if not so what.

Part Twelve-- Drums of Autumn
"Je T'Aime"
Chapter 63-71

21.  Jamie isn’t exactly the easiest of fathers-in-law.  If the circumstances were different, do you think he would have accepted Roger?
Yes I do.. Jamie made me pretty angry all along with his treatment of Roger & only a change in Jamie would turn it around for me.

22.  Did you feel that Roger and Bree established a connection during their night together?

23.  What do you think about Duncan and Jocasta getting married?

24.  Were you glad to hear from Wee Ian?  What did you think of his letter?
YAY!

25.  Wait soon enough in this series, and everyone shows up.  How do you think Archie Hayes took the news of his father being hung?  How do you think Jamie felt about meeting him?

26.  What did you think of Frank’s letter to Rev. Wakefield?
Well that blew a load of my theories (grave stone dates etc).

27.  Knowing from the letter that Frank had a heart condition, do you now feel differently about his intention of leaving Claire and taking Bree to England?
Nope.

GENERAL

In Voyager, Jamie asks Claire, “Will ye risk the man that I am for the sake of the man that I was?”  In Drums of Autumn, he tells her he’s a violent man and not a good man.  After reading this book, do you feel that Jamie has irrevocably changed, and not for the better?  Do you feel that Claire, even though she re-committed herself to him at the sawmill, sometimes has difficulty accepting the man Jamie is now?


do you feel that Jamie has irrevocably changed - yes
and not for the better - in some ways, yes. Others just different. I think he's far less patient than he seemed to be in the past, but no-one's perfect, he's had a very hard life. Some is justified, others not. Personally I think Claire would accept him any way, but she's always been able to stand up for herself.


Can any of the second generation of characters (Roger, Bree, Fergus, Marsali, Ian) measure up to Jamie and Claire?
Not Marsali or Fergus any more - I thought he might but he's faded somewhat.
As for the others, yes. They all do things that interest me and things that annoy me - Jamie & Claire included at times. They seem to have the deepest love for one another, but I'm not sure if that's only because they are the focus. I find Roger, Bree & Ian just as interesting at times.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

EGADS Gertie - why didn't you post some questions, and make them difficult 

ok here goes -

Fun, isn't it?   

1.  Were you surprised that Jamie hadn’t killed Roger?  When you first read that Roger was still alive, why did you think Jamie hadn’t killed him?
I think although I am not sure, but Jamie may have had a feeling that death for this particular person would serve no purpose, or maybe he is tired of "killing" after all he let Bonnet live.

Good observation.  I think he's trying to find some measure of peace on the Ridge with Claire and his men from Ardsmuir. 

16.  How do you feel about Ian giving up his family and his heritage to stay with the Indians?
He had a fascination about the red man from his childhood, and he also found a "love" - not surprised at all, he might have even asked to be able to stay.

Yes, I thought he offered himself in exchange for Roger's freedom. 

20.  Why do you think Bonnet came back for Bree?   Why do you think he asked her to go with him?
He probably felt that he would inherit River Run if Bree went with him.  I think possibly he came back just because he could and his ego would not let him think someone else got the upper hand.

I thought he came back for her because she was carrying his child. 

22.  Did you feel that Roger and Bree established a connection during their night together?
Yes, but Bree let her immaturity take over, again.

Agreed. 

23.  What do you think about Duncan and Jocasta getting married?
She couldn't marry Ulysses and no one else that was acceptable would take her plantation and Duncan was a strong honorable countryman.

Yes, there has to be more to her relationship with Ulysses than meets the eye at this point. 

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

4.  What do you think Jamie meant when he said, “I will bring him home to you, or I will not come back myself.”
He knows just how wrong he was & has to live with the guilt, and couldn't face Bree if he came back without Roger.

Yes, that's what he meant on the surface.  What about Claire?  Would he leave her behind if he decided to become a fur trapper/mountain man, John Myers type?   Is he going to go back to living in a cave?  Knowing Jamie, he'd tell Claire to stay behind because Bree needed her.  He does have a morbid streak in him.  Knowing Claire, she wouldn't.  

When Bree said to Claire ... bring him back, you're the only one who can ... she hadn't yet read Jamie's letter, but I think she knew how deeply his honor affects him.  I think Claire could have brought Jamie back after a time, but only when she was sure Bree would forgive him.  

9.  What did you think of Pere Ferigault’s confession?  What purpose did he have in the story?
I felt very sad for him. His purpose - I guess to show us what kind of fate Roger could have & to make us more scared for him! AND to make Roger himself terrified, leading him to act on the spur of the moment with awful consequences.

Thanks.  I was trying to figure it out, but I think you got it.  

17.  Do you think Jamie did the right thing in leaving Roger behind to make up his mind about Bree and the baby?  When you read that, did you think Roger would find his way back to Bree and accept the baby?
Yes I think he did the right thing if Roger needed it, but I felt he was really too harsh with Roger over it - I mean, the man has just spent months as a prisoner/ slave due to Jamie's mistake & I'm quite sure this was just another blow he had to understand - yet Jamie acted like if he couldn't commit immediately then he was bad for it.

Jamie hardly gave Roger a chance to absorb what had happened to Bree, and the fact that it was Bonnet staggered him.  On the other hand, Jamie was still reeling from the loss of Ian (me, too).  He lashed out at the man who he felt was responsible for what happened to two people he loved deeply; Bree and Ian.  That was an emotionally charged scene.  

18.  Do you think John was right to tell Bree that Bonnet had been captured?  What do you think of her decision to see Bonnet?
Maybe he should have waited until AFTER Bonnet had been hanged, but as much as I cringed about Bree visiting him, I knew she had to do it. I hated what she told him though. Thought that was a huge mistake.

Agreed.

21.  Jamie isn’t exactly the easiest of fathers-in-law.  If the circumstances were different, do you think he would have accepted Roger?
Yes I do.. Jamie made me pretty angry all along with his treatment of Roger & only a change in Jamie would turn it around for me.

That's what really turned me off this book.  I couldn't stand all the things that happened to Roger because of Jamie.  But isn't this part of what he was trying to tell Claire when he said he was a violent man?

GENERAL

In Voyager, Jamie asks Claire, “Will ye risk the man that I am for the sake of the man that I was?”  In Drums of Autumn, he tells her he’s a violent man and not a good man.  After reading this book, do you feel that Jamie has irrevocably changed, and not for the better?  Do you feel that Claire, even though she re-committed herself to him at the sawmill, sometimes has difficulty accepting the man Jamie is now?
[/b]

do you feel that Jamie has irrevocably changed - yes
and not for the better - in some ways, yes. Others just different. I think he's far less patient than he seemed to be in the past, but no-one's perfect, he's had a very hard life. Some is justified, others not. Personally I think Claire would accept him any way, but she's always been able to stand up for herself.

I think Claire was unprepared for the depth of the change in Jamie, but she made a commitment to him in the "kittle-hoosie" (I just love that word).  Then she recommitted herself outside the sawmill when she knew better what to expect.  Once Claire commits herself, she's not likely to back down.  I do think that Bree showing up has complicated the situation and the relationship between Jamie and Claire.  Claire now has to be a buffer between the two.

Can any of the second generation of characters (Roger, Bree, Fergus, Marsali, Ian) measure up to Jamie and Claire?[/b]
Not Marsali or Fergus any more - I thought he might but he's faded somewhat.
As for the others, yes. They all do things that interest me and things that annoy me - Jamie & Claire included at times. They seem to have the deepest love for one another, but I'm not sure if that's only because they are the focus. I find Roger, Bree & Ian just as interesting at times.

Fergus is hiding behind his disability.  I think he can do more than he lets on.  

Marsali is a very strong lady.  In Voyager, Claire remarks how this 15 year old girl, through thick and thin, stuck to her guns about marrying Fergus.  She had her baby alone in Jamaica so that Fergus could do what he wanted (stick to Jamie).  She does the majority of the work on the farm and in the house and even helps Jamie with the whiskey making.  Oh, and she kicked the tax man in the face.  

I like Roger more than Bree.  I think this is because Claire keeps seeing the MacKenzie in him.  He's another one that sticks to his guns.  It's not at all easy for him to adapt to living in the back country in the 18th century, but he's doing it for Bree and Jemmy.  

Bree, on the other hand, is all Fraser.  Stubborn as rocks, but without the redeeming qualities of Jenny and Jamie.  Roger deserves better.

The one that has the most potential for me is Ian.  He's got a code of honor as deep as Jamie's, and takes his responsibilities seriously (except for learning Latin and Greek).  Sometimes he's still a little boy and others, I see the future man shining through.  

[danfan]

 Jamie hardly gave Roger a chance to absorb what had happened to Bree, and the fact that it was Bonnet staggered him.  On the other hand, Jamie was still reeling from the loss of Ian (me, too).  He lashed out at the man who he felt was responsible for what happened to two people he loved deeply; Bree and Ian.  That was an emotionally charged scene.  
 
 
That's what really turned me off this book.  I couldn't stand all the things that happened to Roger because of Jamie.  But isn't this part of what he was trying to tell Claire when he said he was a violent man?

Completely agree with these sentiments. And while I knew Jamie was lashing out because he'd lost Ian, if Roger hadn't been sold to the Indians to begin with (i.e. Jamie checked his facts first) none of it would have happened, so his treatment of Roger is most unfair.
I couldn't stand all that happened to Roger either. He's been pretty much dragged into everything to protect Bree & he seems to be the whipping boy for everything. I realise that he chose to go through the stones, but only because Bree wasn't honest about what she was doing & he had no idea whether or not she planned to come back.

I like Roger more than Bree.  I think this is because Claire keeps seeing the MacKenzie in him.  He's another one that sticks to his guns.  It's not at all easy for him to adapt to living in the back country in the 18th century, but he's doing it for Bree and Jemmy.  

Bree, on the other hand, is all Fraser.  Stubborn as rocks, but without the redeeming qualities of Jenny and Jamie.  Roger deserves better.

The one that has the most potential for me is Ian.  He's got a code of honor as deep as Jamie's, and takes his responsibilities seriously (except for learning Latin and Greek).  Sometimes he's still a little boy and others, I see the future man shining through.  

Agreed to all of that.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

I realise that he chose to go through the stones, but only because Bree wasn't honest about what she was doing & he had no idea whether or not she planned to come back.

And yet she was furious with him for not being honest with her about the newspaper article. To me there's a big difference.  He didn't risk Bree's safety by concealing the article, but she risked both her safety and his by not telling him she was going through the stones. 

If Bree wants honesty from Roger, she should be prepared to give honesty back. 

[danfan]

And yet she was furious with him for not being honest with her about the newspaper article. To me there's a big difference.  He didn't risk Bree's safety by concealing the article, but she risked both her safety and his by not telling him she was going through the stones. 

If Bree wants honesty from Roger, she should be prepared to give honesty back. 

Ooo very good point, Gertie!  Wish he'd thought of that when she was being Miss High-and-Mighty! She stomped off in another huff leading Lizzie to think the worst and he had to put himself in danger for the gems. No-one remembers that of him later on when they don't think he's good enough. 

[danfan]

Think I might start a "Be Kinder to Roger" Klub 

[imallbs]

Part Eleven-- Drums of Autumn
"Pas Du Tout"
Chapter 51-62

1.  Were you surprised that Jamie hadn’t killed Roger? 
I thought Jamie thought he had killed Roger and left him for dead but could not figure out how this story could go on if Jamie had killed Roger.  So then I figured Roger was still alive.  Claire may be accepting some of the changes in Jamie but she would never have been able to completely forgive him for killing Roger and Bree would never have forgiven him even a little.
When you first read that Roger was still alive, why did you think Jamie hadn’t killed him? 
Part of him believed what Roger was saying, and he did not fully believe Bree when she said she was raped.

2.  Do you think the Tuscarorans would have sold Roger to the Mohawk if he hadn’t tried to run away.
Yes.  I think they were following Jamie’s request that they get Roger as far away as possible.

3.  When Roger found the standing stones, do you think he should have tried to go through to save himself?
I would not have been right for him; that is, after all, why he did not do it.  If he had gone back he would always have had questions.

4.  What do you think Jamie meant when he said, “I will bring him home to you, or I will not come back myself.”
That he would not come back without Roger.  If Roger were dead or he could not find him, he would not have returned.

5.  Do you think Pollyanne is happy with the Indians?
Yes

6.  Why didn’t she tell Jamie about seeing the man at the sawmill (Murchison)?
She had no reason to trust Jamie then.

7.  What did you think of Jamie’s jealousy of Frank and Bree?Understandable.  Jamie would have liked to have raised Bree but Frank was the one to raise her.  Also, he knew Claire had feelings for Frank and I think part of that transferred over to his jealousy of Frank’s relationship with Bree.  And Bree had no trouble throwing it in his face when she wanted to.

8.  Pollyanne was adopted into the Tuscarora tribe.  Why do you think the Mohawk didn’t adopt Roger?  
Different tribe, different traditions, different skills brough by the individual.

9.  What did you think of Pere Ferigault’s confession.  
Get over yourself!  People make mistakes, things happen you do not count on
What purpose did he have in the story? 
Other than illustrating how violent the Mohawks could be and being a conduit to a riot so Ian would have to stay, I have no clue what he was doing there.  Then DG does throw in interesting short term characters sometimes, like the priest and naturalist in Voyager.

10.  Once again, Jocasta tries to leave River Run to someone who doesn’t want it.  What do you think is going to happen to the Plantation when she dies?
Jocasta will live forever.  She will refuse to die until she has someone to leave the plantation to and that is not looking real promising.  Maybe Ian will come back.  I want Ian to come back.  She could find out that Willie is Jamie’s kid and leave it to him.

11.  What did you think of Ulysses story?
Horrible, because it is so believable.

12.  What did you think of the story of Otter-Tooth?
Those people from the future can sure cause problems.  At least now I know how the skull and the Indian are related.  There should be a time traveler handbook.  The first thing it should say is “No matter how hard you try, you cannot change the course of major events” then "Have precious stones"

13.  What did you think of Bree’s proposal of marriage to John?
She was rude.  How about approaching someone directly instead of threatening them?  Did she not think it through or was she trying to get back a Jamie a little bit while solving her own, short-term, problem?
Do you think that would have solved her problem? 
It would have got the single men off her back but it would not have solved anything else.  She would have succeeded in making Jamie mad and that was probably part of her reason for asking trying to blackmail John.

14.  How do you think you would have reacted to seeing Jamie lying on the floor beside you if you were Roger? 
Oh!  Let’s see.  I would have been livid, but too tired, dehydrated and malnourished to do anything about it.  It would have been good to kick him in the head when he was down though.  I guess Roger needed to find out about Bree first – then kick Jamie in the head.

15.  What did you think of the death of the priest and his lover?
Other than starting a riot, what was the purpose of this?

16.  How do you feel about Ian giving up his family and his heritage to stay with the Indians?
I like Ian, he needs to come home!  It fits him though.  I thought he would end up with the Indians but more like Meyers or with the Tuscarora.

17.  Do you think Jamie did the right thing in leaving Roger behind to make up his mind about Bree and the baby?
It was Roger’s decision too.  He needed the time and he had learned a lot about survival so he would probably be OK.
  When you read that, did you think Roger would find his way back to Bree and accept the baby?
Yes.  The other option (John) was not going to work.  Maybe I thought he would come back because I want him to come back.  I have also decided Ian is coming back so what do I know.

18.  Do you think John was right to tell Bree that Bonnet had been captured? 
Yes.  Bree needed to confront him.
What do you think of her decision to see Bonnet? 
Face your attacker and take back your power, she needed to see him so she could move on.  This was her version of forgiving.  But what was that whole bit about telling him the baby was his? 

19.  Hodgepile and Murchison show up.  Did you think that Hodgepile would play a bigger role after he was snooping around the Ridge?
Yes, I thought he would be bringing trouble on the Ridge.

20.  Why do you think Bonnet came back for Bree?
The baby.
Why do you think he asked her to go with him?
The baby.

Part Twelve-- Drums of Autumn
"Je T'Aime"
Chapter 63-71

21.  Jamie isn’t exactly the easiest of fathers-in-law.  If the circumstances were different, do you think he would have accepted Roger?  
No.  Roger is not his idea of someone who can take care of his daughter; he has no useful skills.  Besides, he just got Bree and to him she is his little girl.  I do not think he is ready for her to be grown and move away from him (even a little) to start her own family.

22.  Did you feel that Roger and Bree established a connection during their night together?  
I think most of the connecting they did was not written in this book.  I have to think about Bree and Roger making a connection (through letters and visits) while the rest of the story was going on or their story doesn’t make sense to me.
It seemed to me that Bree’s belief in Roger was more about needing to believe that someone besides Bonnet was the father of the baby.  I’m sorry but the whole Bree – Roger connection was not properly developed.

23.  What do you think about Duncan and Jocasta getting married? 
Why not?  Duncan deserves to be happy.  What was with Bree’s attitude towards Duncan?  Was there something before the scene when she was painting that I missed?

24.  Were you glad to hear from Wee Ian?
Yes.  But he is not so wee anymore. 
What did you think of his letter?
I thought he would be OK but I was glad he was able to write to let everyone else know he was happy.  He needs to come back.

25.  Wait soon enough in this series, and everyone shows up.  How do you think Archie Hayes took the news of his father being hung?  
Poor Archie, serving in the army that killed his father.  He had to have been saddened.
How do you think Jamie felt about meeting him? 
Conflicted.  Archie is someone for whom he would have felt responsible but is, in a way, the enemy now.

26.  What did you think of Frank’s letter to Rev. Wakefield?
So Frank was willing to let Claire go after he died?  How nice of him.  Doesn’t that make everything all better. 

27.  Knowing from the letter that Frank had a heart condition, do you now feel differently about his intention of leaving Claire and taking Bree to England?
No

GENERAL

In Voyager, Jamie asks Claire, “Will ye risk the man that I am for the sake of the man that I was?”  In Drums of Autumn, he tells her he’s a violent man and not a good man.  After reading this book, do you feel that Jamie has irrevocably changed, and not for the better?  Do you feel that Claire, even though she re-committed herself to him at the sawmill, sometimes has difficulty accepting the man Jamie is now?
Jamie is bitterer and less concerned about others for whom he does not feel an obligation.  I also think he’s tired of losing people and things and has become more selfish.  He is about protecting what is his.
I think Claire has brought back some of Jamie’s humanity.  She wanted to see Jamie the way he was and seems to be shocked when she sees the way he has hardened.  I think Jamie wants Claire to see him the way he was too.

Can any of the second generation of characters (Roger, Bree, Fergus, Marsali, Ian) measure up to Jamie and Claire?
Only Bree and Ian have been developed at any length but they still fall short.  Fergus has been ignored since Voyager (something I found very irritating about this book).  Marsali has been absent in most of the books.  So much of Roger’s development has been left out, it is hard to understand how he got where he is.  How can any of them measure up to Claire and Jamie when they have been so neglected?  Of all of these characters, Ian is my favorite.  There are many interesting things about him.  Bree is a selfish brat and needs to grow up.
Would anyone have wanted to see less time devoted to Claire and Jamie so that the other characters could have been more fully explored?

[imallbs]

EGADS Gertie - why didn't you post some questions, and make them difficult

No kidding Gertie!  Sheesh! maybe you could give us something to think about next time.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

I think Claire has brought back some of Jamie’s humanity.  She wanted to see Jamie the way he was and seems to be shocked when she sees the way he has hardened.  I think Jamie wants Claire to see him the way he was too.

Yes, I think she did, too.  A lot of terrible things happened to Jamie, both before and after he met Claire, but her memory was the one thing that sustained him.  Now that she's back, he at least has one person with whom he can be himself. 

Can any of the second generation of characters (Roger, Bree, Fergus, Marsali, Ian) measure up to Jamie and Claire?
Only Bree and Ian have been developed at any length but they still fall short.  Fergus has been ignored since Voyager (something I found very irritating about this book).  Marsali has been absent in most of the books.  So much of Roger’s development has been left out, it is hard to understand how he got where he is.  How can any of them measure up to Claire and Jamie when they have been so neglected?  Of all of these characters, Ian is my favorite.  There are many interesting things about him.  Bree is a selfish brat and needs to grow up.

Agreed.  There has been virtually no time devoted to Roger, Bree or their relationship.  In a book that's nearly 900 pages long, certainly some development should have been possible.

Would anyone have wanted to see less time devoted to Claire and Jamie so that the other characters could have been more fully explored?

Yes.  Or less time to Claire's plants and what she smells.   

No kidding Gertie!  Sheesh! maybe you could give us something to think about next time.

Awwww ...



Just wait until Monday and The Fiery Cross.

[imallbs]

Yes.  Or less time to Claire's plants and what she smells.   

I skimmed the smelling of the plants whenever that came up; and the whole part leading up to Claire and Bree's talk.  I skim those same kinds of scenes in the Earth's Children's books.  I would definatly preferred some Roger, Fergus or even more of Ian or Bree to that stuff.  Well, maybe not Bree.

Awwww ...



Just wait until Monday and The Fiery Cross.

Oh No!  I guess I'll have to start reading.   

[imallbs]

26.  What did you think of Frank’s letter to Rev. Wakefield?
Well that blew a load of my theories (grave stone dates etc).

Your's, mine and Claire's

while I knew Jamie was lashing out because he'd lost Ian, if Roger hadn't been sold to the Indians to begin with (i.e. Jamie checked his facts first) none of it would have happened, so his treatment of Roger is most unfair.
I couldn't stand all that happened to Roger either. He's been pretty much dragged into everything to protect Bree & he seems to be the whipping boy for everything. I realise that he chose to go through the stones, but only because Bree wasn't honest about what she was doing & he had no idea whether or not she planned to come back.

What you said!

4.  What do you think Jamie meant when he said, “I will bring him home to you, or I will not come back myself.”
He knows just how wrong he was & has to live with the guilt, and couldn't face Bree if he came back without Roger.

Jamie can admit his mistakes and try to rectify them.  He was about Bree's age in the 1st book and had that trait then; it's something Bree needs to learn.

Can any of the second generation of characters (Roger, Bree, Fergus, Marsali, Ian) measure up to Jamie and Claire?
Not Marsali or Fergus any more - I thought he might but he's faded somewhat.
As for the others, yes. They all do things that interest me and things that annoy me - Jamie & Claire included at times. They seem to have the deepest love for one another, but I'm not sure if that's only because they are the focus. I find Roger, Bree & Ian just as interesting at times.

I agree.  I think the reason I want Ian back is because he was the most developed character (him a Bree, but Bree is a brat) after Claire and Jamie.

Think I might start a "Be Kinder to Roger" Klub 

  I'll join!  I might start a Bring Back Ian petition
I'm going to try to stop bashing Bree now. 

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

  I might start a Bring Back Ian petition

Absolutely.  He's my favorite character after Jamie and Claire. 

I'm going to try to stop bashing Bree now.   

Why?  It's such fun and she earned it. 

[imallbs]

Why?  It's such fun and she earned it. 

 

[Toby]

Why does Bree think the baby is Bonnets & not Roger's? I was very confused by that. All I could think is, Bonnet coming back to claim the baby as his & then they would never get rid of him.

[imallbs]

Why does Bree think the baby is Bonnets & not Roger's? I was very confused by that. All I could think is, Bonnet coming back to claim the baby as his & then they would never get rid of him.

I think it was because she and Roger made an attempt at birth control.  It seems like she is afraid to admit the possibility that the baby may be Roger's.  Of course if Roger comes back then she would have to share the baby with him and I don't think Bree is very good at sharing. 
I'm sure Bonnet will be coming back to claim the baby.  He came back for Bree once when the building was burning.  He sure didn't do that to save her or John.

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

Why does Bree think the baby is Bonnets & not Roger's? I was very confused by that. All I could think is, Bonnet coming back to claim the baby as his & then they would never get rid of him.

Bree doesn't know who the real father is. I think she is trying to offer Bonnet some hope, since he is to be executed. It was her attempt at comfort.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

I think it was because she and Roger made an attempt at birth control.  It seems like she is afraid to admit the possibility that the baby may be Roger's.  Of course if Roger comes back then she would have to share the baby with him and I don't think Bree is very good at sharing. 

Agreed.  But coitus interruptus is just as unreliable as the rhythm method.

I think you're right about sharing the baby with Roger.  She's so controlling, she won't even allow him to bring her to orgasm.  It seems like nothing has changed since she refused to marry him back in Inverness. 

Claire is very independent, too, and mostly does what she wants.  The difference is that Claire supports Jamie and they have a true partnership.  Bree is a little contemptuous of Roger. 

I'm sure Bonnet will be coming back to claim the baby.  He came back for Bree once when the building was burning.  He sure didn't do that to save her or John.

He's so cold in his evilness, but this one thing seems to have gotten to him.  Touched him in a place he probably didn't know he had. 

Bree doesn't know who the real father is. I think she is trying to offer Bonnet some hope, since he is to be executed. It was her attempt at comfort.

Yes, even when faced with Bonnet and what he did to her, Bree is an essentially good person.  I believe what she said to him. 

[Toby]

This is an interesting discussion. I do think that Bree was just afraid of getting hurt by Roger. She's afraid of commitment. Wants to be sure Roger is the "one" for her. They both make mistakes, big ones. I would have gotten mad at Roger, if I were Bree for not telling me about my parents dying in the house fire. I would have gotten mad at Bree, if I were Roger, for not telling me that she was going thru the stones. Then, Roger leaves Bree to travel alone to look for a gemestone. I guess all this happens to make a storyline. No problems, no story. 
     To me, telling Bonnet about the baby being his was stupid, even if it was his. I would have liked it better if Bree yelled at him & smashed & pummeled him. Even Claire can't understand Bree. After all she taught Bree & those embarrassing classes at school. UGGGGGG!! Uh, Teenagers.....
     I like Ian alot. I do hope we see him again. i also miss Rollo. I keep thinking up ways for Ian & his wife & Rollo to escape, yet Ian is probably very happy, if not homesick for his family.     

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

     To me, telling Bonnet about the baby being his was stupid, even if it was his. I would have liked it better if Bree yelled at him & smashed & pummeled him.

Considering he was not chained up any more, it's a good thing she didn't.     Whew, that would have been some scene, wouldn't it. 

Even Claire can't understand Bree. After all she taught Bree & those embarrassing classes at school. UGGGGGG!! Uh, Teenagers.....

I have a feeling that Bree will be a willful teenager all her life. 

I like Ian alot. I do hope we see him again. i also miss Rollo. I keep thinking up ways for Ian & his wife & Rollo to escape, yet Ian is probably very happy, if not homesick for his family.     

I was so upset, not to mention shocked, when Ian stayed behind with the Mohawk.  I don't know what it is about that boy, but I just love him to death.  If he were my son, I'd probably kill him.  If I were Lizzie's age, I'd probably be mooning around after him (with no success).  Since Second Mary, Ian seems to be quite the ladies man.