The Fiery Cross: Week of 7/13; Reading Chps 39-72, Discuss Chps 26-38 here

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

We'll be reading Parts 5 and 6; Chapters 39-72 this week. 

Sorry I'm so late with the questions.  Thunderstorms have been wreaking havoc with my computer time. 

Part Three
Alarms and Excursions
Chapters 26-32

1.  We have seen mercy killings before; Dougal and Geordie, Dougal and Rupert, Claire and Isaac.  Was Jamie killing Beardsley any different?  Why or why not?

2.  Did you believe Fanny Beardsley story about the ghost?

3.  Were you surprised when Jamie offered the Beardsley baby to Claire?  Did Claire make the right decision?

4.  Do you think the baby is safe with the Brown family?

5.  Why do you think Jamie helped Morton and Alicia Brown to elope?

Part Four
I Hear No Music But the Sound of Drums
Chapter 33-38

1.  Briana asked Roger about the geese and if all of them mate for life like the graylags.  Considering the dangerous times they are living in, do you think that she is afraid if something happens to Roger, she won’t ever be married again?

2.  What do you think of Lizzie and all the boys that seem to surround her? 

3.  What did you think of Dougal’s deathbed confession?

“Sister’s son or no ... I would that I had killed you, that day on the hill.  For I knew from the beginning that it would be you or me.”


4.  What do you think of Lizzie’s friendship with the Twins?

5.  What did you think of Roger reading Bree’s journal?

6.  What do you think of her dreams about Bonnet, and how she wanted to use them to help her sex life with Roger?  How do you think Roger felt?

[millie34]

 

1.  We have seen mercy killings before; Dougal and Geordie, Dougal and Rupert, Claire and Isaac.  Was Jamie killing Beardsley any different?  Why or why not?
     In the first instances, they were people they knew and loved.  They were suffering and would die imminently.  Beardsley was not only a stranger but a not very nice stranger.  With care he could probably have lived a bit longer, but they couldn’t stay with him, and Fanny had already tortured him and attempted to kill him, so she was not an option.  At least Jamie asked him what he wanted.  I’m a bit surprised that they would consider mercy killing at all, but I guess religion didn’t play a big role in those times.

2.  Did you believe Fanny Beardsley story about the ghost?    
     I don’t believe that spirits come back and talk with the living, but they did.  Fanny was so abused that she was probable psychotic and could have hallucinated.  Then again, if people can go through stones, why not ghosts, and she did know where the other wives were buried.
3.  Were you surprised when Jamie offered the Beardsley baby to Claire?  Did Claire make the right decision?    
     Yes I was surprised.  Although he has children and step children, he never got to raise any from infancy.  Baby Faith was tugging at his heart strings.  I was glad Claire said no.  First of all they are now middle aged, and they have quite enough responsibility already.  Besides Claire knows there is war coming.

4.  Do you think the baby is safe with the Brown family?
     I would think so.  They’re well aware of the property and goods they will have charge of if they take the child.  

5.  Why do you think Jamie helped Morton and Alicia Brown to elope?  
     It was either let them go, or see Morton killed by Alicia’s father.  He wasn’t going back to his wife in any case.  I think too that Jamie might have seen a parallel to his love for Claire and her marriage to Frank.

Part Four
I Hear No Music But the Sound of Drums

1.Briana asked Roger about the geese and if all of them mate for life like the graylags.  Considering the dangerous times they are living in, do you think that she is afraid if something happens to Roger, she won’t ever be married again?    
     She may have been thinking about what her life would be like if anything happened to Roger.

2. What do you think of Lizzie and all the boys that seem to surround her?
       Well, she’s a young, single and eligible woman and there aren’t too many around.
  
3.  What did you think of Dougal’s deathbed confession?

  Sister’s son or no… I would that I had killed you, that day on the hill.  For I knew from   the beginning that it would be you or me.  
    WOW!! He was Jamie’s Uncle and mentor.  He should have been like a son to him.  He said he knew it would be him or Jamie, but I don’t remember why he felt that way.

4.What do you think of Lizzie’s friendship with the Twins?
     I guess it was natural since they lived together.  It may be a brother/sister relationship or maybe not.

5.  What did you think of Roger reading Bree’s journal?
     Bad move.  Now that he has read it, what’s he going to do about it?  He can’t admit that he’s read it without infuriating Bree.

6.  What do you think of her dreams about Bonnet, and how she wanted to use them to help her sex life with Roger?  How do you think Roger felt?
    That’s really strange.  How could she think anything she did with Bonnet was good.  Did she have an orgasm?

[izzykolo]

Part Three
Alarms and Excursions
Chapters 26-32

1. We have seen mercy killings before; Dougal and Geordie, Dougal and Rupert, Claire and Isaac.  Was Jamie killing Beardsley any different?  Why or why not?
No, this really wasn’t any different. Just like the others, it was a matter of mercy killing to prevent a more painful and drawn-out death.

2.  Did you believe Fanny Beardsley story about the ghost?
I’m really not sure, but something certainly spooked Mr. Beardsley into the attic and into having a stroke.

3.  Were you surprised when Jamie offered the Beardsley baby to Claire?  Did Claire make the right decision?
It surprised me, but I didn’t think it out of character for Jamie to suggest it. He really wanted to give her the same choice she gave him when she came back. She wasn’t sure whether Jamie would be interested in fathering a child twenty years later, but didn’t make the choice for him and came back without having her “tubes tied.” So, by offering the child to Claire, he was saying, “now I give the choice to you.”

She did the right thing to say no, even though she did it with mixed emotions. She knows that she’s in a different place, with different responsibilities.

4.  Do you think the baby is safe with the Brown family?
I don’t think we’ve seen the last of this baby. I would like to think that she is safe, but I have a dreaded feeling that she will be used for her inheritance and get mediocre care and very little love in that family.

5.  Why do you think Jamie helped Morton and Alicia Brown to elope?
The alternative was to leave pregnant Alicia with her father. It would not have been a happy life for this young girl, and she just might have succeeded in taking her own life, if she was distraught enough.

Part Four
I Hear No Music But the Sound of Drums
Chapter 33-38

1.  Briana asked Roger about the geese and if all of them mate for life like the graylags.  Considering the dangerous times they are living in, do you think that she is afraid if something happens to Roger, she won’t ever be married again?
I think she is thinking that she may not want to marry someone else, if she lost Roger.  I’m not really sure how much Briana loves Roger; I think she’s in love with the idea of having an intense relationship like the one that exists between Jamie and Claire and is basing this feeling on that illusion. Briana is not Claire. She is a little spoiled and selfish and I’m not sure she could ever give herself that completely to someone.

2.  What do you think of Lizzie and all the boys that seem to surround her?
Shy little Lizzie is becoming a woman. She’s becoming confident – she’s had a few strong women to learn from. It’s nice to see.

3.  What did you think of Dougal’s deathbed confession?
There was always that tension between those two characters. While they loved each, there was a lot of competition and mistrust between them. I’m not surprised to learn that Dougal felt this way. I don’t think it was mutual.
“Sister’s son or no ... I would that I had killed you, that day on the hill.  For I knew from the beginning that it would be you or me.”

4.  What do you think of Lizzie’s friendship with the Twins?
I think Joshua is the “j” in Lizzie’s future.

5.  What did you think of Roger reading Bree’s journal?
Mistake! But who could resist. While I doubt Bree’s love for Roger, Roger adores Bree and wants to understand her and do whatever he can to please her.

6.  What do you think of her dreams about Bonnet, and how she wanted to use them to help her sex life with Roger?  How do you think Roger felt?
Wow, that’s tough to answer. I remember reading about her going to visit him in the warehouse and thinking how odd it was. No doubt she hates him and would like to see him dead, but (and I might get slammed for this) I think on some level, she is attracted to what he is – as opposite from Roger as you can get. I think she really respects salty-dog, tough, powerful men – like her Da in some ways. Of course Bonnet is a slime in many respects.  

I can’t imagine Roger would be pleased by this, but he is from our time and maybe understands the nature of dreams.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

1.  We have seen mercy killings before; Dougal and Geordie, Dougal and Rupert, Claire and Isaac.  Was Jamie killing Beardsley any different?  Why or why not?
     In the first instances, they were people they knew and loved.  They were suffering and would die imminently.  Beardsley was not only a stranger but a not very nice stranger.  With care he could probably have lived a bit longer, but they couldn’t stay with him, and Fanny had already tortured him and attempted to kill him, so she was not an option.  At least Jamie asked him what he wanted.  I’m a bit surprised that they would consider mercy killing at all, but I guess religion didn’t play a big role in those times.

I think "imminent death" is the key for the first three.  The decision was quickly made and quickly carried out.  Beardsley's death seemed colder and more calculated.  It seemed almost like an execution.  

I think religion did play a big role, but the lack of medical care made a difference.  Even with modern medical care, many people suffer, but a lot fewer than did 200 years ago.  

2.  Did you believe Fanny Beardsley story about the ghost?    
     I don’t believe that spirits come back and talk with the living, but they did.  Fanny was so abused that she was probable psychotic and could have hallucinated.  Then again, if people can go through stones, why not ghosts, and she did know where the other wives were buried.

I have to agree that Fanny was psychotic.  Her actions with the baby tell me that at the very least, she was desperate.  

  

5.  What did you think of Roger reading Bree’s journal?
     Bad move.  Now that he has read it, what’s he going to do about it?  He can’t admit that he’s read it without infuriating Bree.

It doesn't seem to take much to infuriate Bree.  

6.  What do you think of her dreams about Bonnet, and how she wanted to use them to help her sex life with Roger?  How do you think Roger felt?
    That’s really strange.  How could she think anything she did with Bonnet was good.  Did she have an orgasm?

I think she did in her dream.  

Part Three
Alarms and Excursions
Chapters 26-32

3.  Were you surprised when Jamie offered the Beardsley baby to Claire?  Did Claire make the right decision?

It surprised me, but I didn’t think it out of character for Jamie to suggest it. He really wanted to give her the same choice she gave him when she came back. She wasn’t sure whether Jamie would be interested in fathering a child twenty years later, but didn’t make the choice for him and came back without having her “tubes tied.” So, by offering the child to Claire, he was saying, “now I give the choice to you.”

I like that answer.  It shows just how much Jamie is in tune with Claire feelings, and to what lengths he would go to make her happy.  

4.  Do you think the baby is safe with the Brown family?

I don’t think we’ve seen the last of this baby. I would like to think that she is safe, but I have a dreaded feeling that she will be used for her inheritance and get mediocre care and very little love in that family.

I am a little uneasy about leaving the baby with the Browns.  It seems they are only keeping her for her inheritance.  They can take over the farm and the trading post, and who is to stop them since the legal owner is in their care.  

Part Four
I Hear No Music But the Sound of Drums
Chapter 33-38

1.  Briana asked Roger about the geese and if all of them mate for life like the graylags.  Considering the dangerous times they are living in, do you think that she is afraid if something happens to Roger, she won’t ever be married again?

I think she is thinking that she may not want to marry someone else, if she lost Roger.  I’m not really sure how much Briana loves Roger; I think she’s in love with the idea of having an intense relationship like the one that exists between Jamie and Claire and is basing this feeling on that illusion. Briana is not Claire. She is a little spoiled and selfish and I’m not sure she could ever give herself that completely to someone.

I'm not sure I get Bree's feelings for Roger.  I'm thinking that she's afraid if something happens to Roger, and she's not a graylag goose (so to speak), she'll be expected to take another mate, and she's not so anxious to give control over to someone else again.  Wait, I think I just said the same thing as you did.   

3.  What did you think of Dougal’s deathbed confession?
There was always that tension between those two characters. While they loved each, there was a lot of competition and mistrust between them. I’m not surprised to learn that Dougal felt this way. I don’t think it was mutual.
“Sister’s son or no ... I would that I had killed you, that day on the hill.  For I knew from the beginning that it would be you or me.”

No, I don't think it was mutual.  Jamie knew it was dangerous to give his oath to Colum.  When Colum died and if the clan supported Jamie for chief, Dougal would no longer be needed as war chief.  I know Dougal would fight for his rights, and at that point, it would be kill or be killed for both of them.  I think Dougal was anticipating that situation.  Hamish was too young to be a factor.

4.  What do you think of Lizzie’s friendship with the Twins?
I think Joshua is the “j” in Lizzie’s future.

Aha!  Forgot about that.

6.  What do you think of her dreams about Bonnet, and how she wanted to use them to help her sex life with Roger?  How do you think Roger felt?
Wow, that’s tough to answer. I remember reading about her going to visit him in the warehouse and thinking how odd it was. No doubt she hates him and would like to see him dead, but (and I might get slammed for this) I think on some level, she is attracted to what he is – as opposite from Roger as you can get. I think she really respects salty-dog, tough, powerful men – like her Da in some ways. Of course Bonnet is a slime in many respects.  

Yes, I see what you mean.  Jamie did tell Roger that his daughter wouldn't want a coward.  I wonder if Bonnet weren't a pirate and murderer and rapist, Bree would have been more attracted to him than she is to Roger.  

I can’t imagine Roger would be pleased by this, but he is from our time and maybe understands the nature of dreams.

I don't know.  That was one heck of a dream, and it's the first time Roger has found out that he can't satisfy his wife.  Pretty tough to take.  

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

Part Three
Alarms and Excursions
Chapters 26-32

1.  We have seen mercy killings before; Dougal and Geordie, Dougal and Rupert, Claire and Isaac.  Was Jamie killing Beardsley any different?  Why or why not?
No,  I think is was a mercy killing. Beardsley knew he was dying and could not recover. His wife would also continue to torture him. Jamie was careful to make sure that Beardsley understood what was going on and gave him the choice.

2.  Did you believe Fanny Beardsley story about the ghost?
Not sure. She was definitely demented, but how else would she have known about the other wives?

3.  Were you surprised when Jamie offered the Beardsley baby to Claire?  Did Claire make the right decision?
No. Jamie saw this as a way to give Claire a child without endangering her life. She had already almost died both times she gave birth. Claire knew that keeping the child would not be practical. She would be going with the militia and there was no way to know how often that might be. She was thinking about the baby rather than herself or Jamie.

4.  Do you think the baby is safe with the Brown family?
I have mixed feelings about that. I like to think that she would be well taken care of.

5.  Why do you think Jamie helped Morton and Alicia Brown to elope?
He understood the feelings, and he knew that they would try to be together and this was the best chance they had to do it and survive.

Part Four
I Hear No Music But the Sound of Drums
Chapter 33-38

1.  Briana asked Roger about the geese and if all of them mate for life like the graylags.  Considering the dangerous times they are living in, do you think that she is afraid if something happens to Roger, she won’t ever be married again?

Maybe she is concerned that she will only love one man. She remembers Claire was in a loveless marriage when she went back to Frank, because Jamie was the love of her life.

2.  What do you think of Lizzie and all the boys that seem to surround her? 
This is normal, since there were more men than available women. She will be married off soon.

3.  What did you think of Dougal’s deathbed confession?

“Sister’s son or no ... I would that I had killed you, that day on the hill.  For I knew from the beginning that it would be you or me.”

Dougal saw Jamie as a rival for leadership of the clan. Dougal was the leader only when acting on Colum’s behalf. If Colum was gone, Dougal had no assurance that the clan would follow him.

4.  What do you think of Lizzie’s friendship with the Twins?
She has taken them under her wing and is being a mother to them.

5.  What did you think of Roger reading Bree’s journal?
He invaded her privacy, but nothing out of the ordinary.

6.  What do you think of her dreams about Bonnet, and how she wanted to use them to help her sex life with Roger?  How do you think Roger felt?
I am sure Roger felt betrayed. Was Bree looking for someone who was more take charge? Roger was so considerate and didn’t really take control when it came to Bree.

[imallbs]

Hey, I finished this part.  How far behind am I?

Part Three
Alarms and Excursions
Chapters 26-32

1.  We have seen mercy killings before; Dougal and Geordie, Dougal and Rupert, Claire and Isaac.  Was Jamie killing Beardsley any different?  Why or why not?
I think it was a mercy killing.  What made it different is that Beardsley could have lived but would have needed care he couldn't get.  Jamie may have been thinking about his father and that, had his father been in that position, he have like his father to be given the option he gave Beardsley.

2.  Did you believe Fanny Beardsley story about the ghost?
This journey started with a ghost so why not a ghost here too?  If there wasn't a ghost, how did Fanny find out about the others?

3.  Were you surprised when Jamie offered the Beardsley baby to Claire?  Did Claire make the right decision?
I wasn't surprised, there were not a lot of other options for the baby and he wanted to give her the choice she gave him.  I would have been surprised if she had accepted because she made it clear at the gathering that she did not want another child.  Also Claire knows what is coming and how much time she could devote to being a mother.
I wonder how only child Bree would have felt about a new baby sister.  That could have been interesting.

4.  Do you think the baby is safe with the Brown family?
Yes, she has value to them.

5.  Why do you think Jamie helped Morton and Alicia Brown to elope?
They were going anyway.  This way Morton might live.  And with the pregnancy how could Alicia have stayed?

Part Four
I Hear No Music But the Sound of Drums
Chapter 33-38

1.  Briana asked Roger about the geese and if all of them mate for life like the graylags.  Considering the dangerous times they are living in, do you think that she is afraid if something happens to Roger, she won’t ever be married again?
Maybe she's afraid she hasn't found her one true mate.  She sure doesn't act like she has.

2.  What do you think of Lizzie and all the boys that seem to surround her? 
Little Lizzie is growing up.  I like that she knows her value.  Her life would have been so different if Bree had not insisted on taking her.  That was a good side of Bree – I can't believe I found one.

What did you think of Dougal’s deathbed confession?

“Sister’s son or no ... I would that I had killed you, that day on the hill.  For I knew from the beginning that it would be you or me.”
I never liked Dougal.  But he was probably right.  Jamie had a respect and was liked in a way that Dougal was not.  I'm sure that Dougal thought he had earned the right to lead the Clan and he craved the power.  I  think Jamie knew it would be this way, not because he wanted it or wanted what Dougal wanted but because he knew how Dougal thought.  He had always suspected that Dougal was the one that attacked him.  Interesting about his not being able to hear music after that attack.

4.  What do you think of Lizzie’s friendship with the Twins?
Lizzie is turning into a very caring, brave woman.

5.  What did you think of Roger reading Bree’s journal?
Bad Roger, Bad.  Bree is going to be very angry if she finds out.  And now Roger has to find a way to deal with the information.  Does he let Bree know what he did and incur her wrath or does he find another way to manage it?  Not a decision I would want to make.  In this case, for Roger, ignorance was bliss.

6.  What do you think of her dreams about Bonnet, and how she wanted to use them to help her sex life with Roger?  How do you think Roger felt?
So analyzing a dream, ok.  Bree is happy when she is thinking about Roger and then Bonnet comes into the picture then she is scared.  It seems like, on the face of it, that she is dreaming about great sex with Bonnet.  I don't think that was what was happening.  I think she was dreaming about great sex with Roger and how Bonnet had a part in taking that from her along with the other things he took from her.  He took her sense of security and belief that she could take care of herself; now she is constantly proving that she can take care of herself and putting Roger down while doing it.  She thinks Jemmy is Bonnet's kid and Jemmy is the reason she can't go home.  Because she wants to go home she can't have more kids right now so she isn't going to have a larger family.  There are other things but her sex life had, understandably, suffered and she wants a good sex life with Roger.  So she is using the feelings in the dream to help her understand what she is looking for.
I don't think Roger sees it this way.  So he probably feels terrible, betrayed - that Bree has been lying to him, hiding things from him and (in his opinion) is attracted to Bonnet.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

Hey, I finished this part.  How far behind am I?

I'm on Part 8.  I'm reading and posting each part as fast as I can because I'm going away next week. I may be able to get on every day, but I'm not counting on it.  Don't worry about keeping up.  I won't have much time to read next week, so I probably won't start posting A Breath of Snow and Ashes for a while.   

[q/uote]Part Three
1.  Briana asked Roger about the geese and if all of them mate for life like the graylags.  Considering the dangerous times they are living in, do you think that she is afraid if something happens to Roger, she won’t ever be married again?

Maybe she's afraid she hasn't found her one true mate.  She sure doesn't act like she has.[/quote]

That's it.  That's part of what I was thinking, but couldn't put it into words.  If geese mate for life (and I think we can agree that she is somewhat of a goose), and something happens to Roger, she'll never meet her true love.