Song lyrics in books

[Dave Dykema]

This happens all the time, but I'm wondering what would happen to us Indies if we put a lyric in our novels. Is it OK to put in a quick line? Do we need permission from the songwriters? Is a copyright notice for the song sufficient? Is it worth the hassle?

In the book I'm working on, here's a quick scene:

   "Before I laugh too much he's returned to my shoulders and back, kneading my muscles just right. Not too much pressure, but firm."
   "Hmm hmm. That's the way, uh huh uh huh, we like it, uh huh uh huh," sang Melanie.
   A few customers eyeballed them; the man by himself in the corner in particular. When he folded his newspaper and returned to the stock quotes, Carol hissed, "God, you're so stupid sometimes."


It's just in the middle of some dialog. It's not really important, but I like it. It shows that's Melanie is playful, fun-loving.

No one mentions the song at all. (You all know what it is, don't you?)

Thoughts?

[Geoffrey Thorne]

if you use the copyrighted material of another writer in your work you need their permission and, usually, that involves paying them. There is no loophole.

You're not allowed to use song lyrics unless the writer says you can.

[Dave Dykema]

That's pretty much what I thought. Thanks.

[911jason]

Dave, I found a pretty lengthy discussion on the topic on another writer's forum, you might want to check it out...

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8231

A post in that thread also pointed to an article with several other online resources to help in obtaining the rights you are seeking.

http://www.justaboutwrite.com/A_Archive_IntellectProp3.html

[Richard in W.Orange]

I'd agree (based on performance rights we get for Musicals) .. but .. I'd also think that for "a line" appropriately cited as being someone's work the rights wouldn't necessarily be prohibitive (at all). I'm thinking based on how we license musical rights, that our "royalty" payment is related to both the size of the house (your books likely penetration) and the average cost of ticket (what your book sells for) so you might find that its both cheap and not too difficult.

For a musical like Ragtime we paid about 5K ... which equates to $2.75 per seat or so with an average ticket of 17 and change ... (our low is 4 high is 25)

And that was for 3 hours of music and words

I can't IMAGINE that you'd be slapped too hard for a few lines of a song

GOOD LUCK

[PhillipA82]

if you use the copyrighted material of another writer in your work you need their permission and, usually, that invilves paying them. There is no loophole.

You're not allowed to use song lyrics unless the writer says you can.

Exactly

[Christopher Meeks]

I'll be the person to add a different point of view. There is such thing as fair use. My entertainment attorney told me I could quote three lines or less from a song and it's fair use. Some song publishers expect money for even one line, but it's doesn't mean the law is on their side. From your quote, I wouldn't worry. I'm not an attorney so don't go saying I said it's okay, but you have so little from the song, if it were me, I'd keep it as is. The moment you go ask someone "How much will it cost?" they will give you a figure. No one is going to say, "Oh, you're using hardly anything, no charge."

[daveconifer]

I have a few lines of lyrics from two songs by a band called Hoobastank in "Throwback."  In both cases it's clearly attributed as lyrics to their songs, and there is nothing derogatory or defamatory going on.  It hasn't exactly made the best seller list in the five years it's existed, but there are about 3,000 hardcopies and a bunch of electronic copies out there.  Nobody has ever batted an eye. 

I'm no legal eagle but I was told that there is some gray area here and some interpret the law to say that it is okay in small doses if properly cited and not derogatory or inflammatory. 

[Jeff]

I can say from bitter experience that winning a law suit is like winning a closely contested street brawl - even if you win you lose a lot of blood. The music industry is very litigious.

[Geoffrey Thorne]

I have a few lines of lyrics from two songs by a band called Hoobastank in "Throwback."  In both cases it's clearly attributed as lyrics to their songs, and there is nothing derogatory or defamatory going on.  It hasn't exactly made the best seller list in the five years it's existed, but there are about 3,000 hardcopies and a bunch of electronic copies out there.  Nobody has ever batted an eye.  

I'm no legal eagle but I was told that there is some gray area here and some interpret the law to say that it is okay in small doses if properly cited and not derogatory or inflammatory.  

There is no gray area. If you start making stacks of cash off the book you will owe the people whose copyright you're using a cut of the profit. That's if they want to stop there. They could shut down publication of your book AND take their cut of the existing profits. Just because they don't, it doesn't make it legal. We are required to defend trademarks but copyright is automatic and doesn't require defending. As soon as the original writer becomes aware of the breach he or she can shut you down and take money from you.

these are writers. Like us. They make money by licensing their words. If one wants to use someone else's words, ask for permission and be prepared to accept "no" as the answer.

Fair is fair.

And it's the law too.

[Dave Dykema]

Honestly, I work at a TV station. Whenever someone puts a song in a news story or sings a few bars on the set, I'm the Music Nazi. I know all about copyright and how it can and cannot be used in those cases. What I mentioned is termed a "needle drop", meaning you never would have heard the song unless someone, the editor or anchor, decided to insert the song into their narrative. If you're doing a live shot from a bar and The Beach Boys just happen to be on the jukebox or being played by a cover band, there is a "fair use" time limit (7 or 14 seconds, depending on who I'm arguing with) where it's allowed. If the live reporter says, "let's listen to these guys play the Beach Boys" and the camera zooms in on them, that's a different matter, because he chose to point it out. If when the story's over and the anchors are yucking it up on a four-shot just before the end of the news and and the lead anchor says "And we'll have fun, fun, fun 'til your daddy turns us back on tomorrow" then that's certainly a needle drop, because there was no need for him to say that. He used the Beach Boys' words by choice.

[Geoffrey Thorne]

right but that can't happen in a book where every word, even the "adlibs," is chosen by the writer.

[Christopher Meeks]

As I suggested before, this is a gray area. You all read book reviews, and book reviews quote from books. You can bet they're not being sued. That's because of a) the fair use doctrine and b) it's good publicity. The fair use doctrine was created because otherwise some people would say "no" to any use. Thus, a fairly safe way to look at this is are you quoting minimally and are you doing so in a positive light? Is the attribution clear? That is, is it clear whose words they are? After all, you don't want to pawn off someone else's words as your own. Someone isn't likely to sue if you're using a few lines or less in a positive way and it's clearly attributed.

The example that started off this thread may only fail in that it's not clear who you're quoting. That could be rectified by having, "'...uh huh, uh huh,' sang Melanie, alluding to D.J. Clue's song."

For a lawyer's examination into this subject, see the article "Understanding Fair Use" by John Savage at http://www.writing-world.com/rights/fair.shtml.

[Dave Dykema]

The example that started off this thread may only fail in that it's not clear who you're quoting. That could be rectified by having, "'...uh huh, uh huh,' sang Melanie, alluding to D.J. Clue's song."

Funny, because actually it's "That's the Way (I Like It)" by KC and the Sunshine Band (which is probably sampled by DJ Clue [guessing as I have no idea what song you're talking about]).

right but that can't happen in a book where every word, even the "adlibs," is chosen by the writer.

Correct Geoffrey. I decided to put those lyrics in, so I'm responsible. At this point, I should probably just come up with something else that causes people in the coffee shop to look at her. I just thought bursting into song was a natural choice.

[Jeff]

At this point, I should probably just come up with something else that causes people in the coffee shop to look at her. I just thought bursting into song was a natural choice.

How about saying that she burst out singing "That's the Way (I Like It)" by KC and the Sunshine Band?

[Geoffrey Thorne]

How about saying that she burst out singing "That's the Way (I Like It)" by KC and the Sunshine Band?

That is allowed. Song titles can't be copyrighted.

[Paul Clayton]

IMHO, it's not worth it to quote lyrics.  Unless you have a traditional book contract and the house runs down the owners and negotiates terms, etc.  That's why I created bands like Steem Masheen in my novel, quoting songs they (I) wrote to my heart's content. 

[Dave Dykema]

After much deliberation, I think I'll go with this:

   "Before I laugh too much he's returned to my shoulders and back, kneading my muscles just right. Not too much pressure, but firm."
   Melanie burst out singing "That's the Way (I Like It)" by KC & The Sunshine Band, standing and thrusting her hips at the appropriate places.
   A few customers eyeballed them; the man by himself in the corner in particular. When he folded his newspaper and returned to the stock quotes, Carol hissed, "God, you're so stupid sometimes."

Thanks all who chipped in to help and comment.

[cheerio]

if you use the copyrighted material of another writer in your work you need their permission and, usually, that involves paying them. There is no loophole.

You're not allowed to use song lyrics unless the writer says you can.

everyone wants to get credit and get paid for their work