OUTLANDER: Week of 1/19; Reading Chapters 16-20; Discuss Chapters 11-15 here

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

Awwww, the sweet misery of it!  I am already into chaper 3 of the 2nd book.  Sorry to butt into this conversation, but I couldn't resist. 

Kathy

Butt in any time.  Everyone's comments are welcome. 

Those of you who are new to the series are so lucky.  You can get the first six books right away and book 7 comes out in the Fall.  You're especially lucky because they are all on Kindle.  I hope #7 comes out on Kindle right away and we don't have to wait. 

[mom133d (aka Liz)]

I've read ahead so I'll put this in with spoiler although it probably really isn't a spoiler...

When jamie is going to leave for the hunting party with the Duke, Claire wakes up and finds him watching her. He says something of "I dreamt I'd lost you and just wanted to look upon you."  My thought was that he that is what the "ghost" is doing and perhaps that it is jamie, not physically time-travelling, but part of his spirit found her.

[bosslady402]

I've read ahead so I'll put this in with spoiler although it probably really isn't a spoiler...

When jamie is going to leave for the hunting party with the Duke, Claire wakes up and finds him watching her. He says something of "I dreamt I'd lost you and just wanted to look upon you."  My thought was that he that is what the "ghost" is doing and perhaps that it is jamie, not physically time-travelling, but part of his spirit found her.

Having read all the books, and knowing that the question of the ghost has not yet been resolved, I just wanted to say I think that is a really good guess. (nuf said)

[Lizzy]

Chapter 15 "Revelations of the Bridal Chamber"

9. In what ways were both Jamie and Claire vulnerable on their wedding night?

Jaime was because he was a virgin and didnt exactly know what to do. Claire was because she was thinking of her husband and she said that she hadnt been with any man but him for eight years and now its only been six weeks and shes already cheating on him.

10. How do you feel about the issue of honesty (and Claire's hesitancy)?

Jamie is hiding things and i dont know why after all they are married now. Claire cant tell him the whole truth cause she'd look like a nut.

[Meemo]

Not really a book club question but since everyone's reading Outlander here - are y'all able to change the justification?  I can't get it to left-justify, it's stuck in full justification.  I know how to change it, it just won't change.  Maybe it's formatted not to change?  Just curious...I prefer left justification so all the weird spacing doesn't happen - I find it distracting.  But not so much I don't enjoy the book!

[imallbs]

Not really a book club question but since everyone's reading Outlander here - are y'all able to change the justification?  I can't get it to left-justify, it's stuck in full justification.  I know how to change it, it just won't change.  Maybe it's formatted not to change?  Just curious...I prefer left justification so all the weird spacing doesn't happen - I find it distracting.  But not so much I don't enjoy the book!

I can't get it to left justify either.  I've done the alt J thing and it shows as left justified but the actual text is full justification.

[imallbs]

Chapter 12 "The Garrison Commander"

3. What is your perception of Claire and Jamie's changing relationship? (He sleeps outside her door for protection...)

It seems like a natural progression.  He cares for her but she has a wall up and he isn’t able to do more (I think he would like to but he’s too honorable to push himself on her).  This is helping Claire to trust Jamie and will help her feel more than an attraction to him.  I like their verbal exchange – more humor

“I’m sorry I stepped on you”
“No harm done, Sassenach,” he said. “As soon as the headache goes away and the cracked rib heals, I’ll be good as new”


4. How has Claire changed between her first and second encounter with Black Jack Randall (at Fort William)?

I agree that Claire understands more about where she is (this is not a movie) so is more sure of herself.  If Claire does get back, will her contact with his ancestor affect the way she is with Frank?

"Your wig is crooked." - Claire to Jack Randall after he punches her.
This is a lot like what I would expect Jamie to say; seems like he and Claire have a lot in common.


Chapter 13 "A Marriage Is Announced"
5. How did you feel when first learning Claire and Jamie were to be married?
I thought, at 1st that it came out of nowhere.  That might stem from my opinion of Dougal.  I could not see how it would benefit him.  

Loved the 1945 Claire that come out when she found out she was going to get married.  The reaction of the men to a woman who would act like that was great.

6. What is the significance of the Pictish cross being mentioned again?

Celtic Crosses are imbued with continuous and interwoven knot and spiral motifs symbolizing the continuity of life, death and rebirth.  For Claire this is what she is experiencing.  Her life continues but her old life is dying and she is being reborn into a new life 200 years earlier and with another man.

Dougal stops at the crossroads with the Pictish cross and asks Claire if she is a spy and if so for whom.)

7. How did the description of Jamie's flogging affect you?
This part was hard to read as well it should be.  Claire is learning more and more about who Jamie is and is moving her on the road to loving him and away from Frank.

This is another aspect of Dougal.  He obviously cares about Jamie but at the same time is ruthless with him – using Jamie for his own benefit without caring how Jamie felt.

Jamie was my patient, and to some extent, my friend as well.- Claire's thoughts at the crossroads.

[PraiseGod13]

It's been a very busy/complicated week so I haven't been able to post here.... but I am current on my reading so I'm thinking of all of you and have just finished reading your posts.  This was such a great week of reading and I love your quotes Gertie!!  Jamie's quote after the wedding when Claire wakes up after fainting is one of my very favorites too.
     I also laughed when I read the quote from Claire saying that Dougal could always tap dance.  But, to me.... what REALLY made that funny is that Jamie was totally baffled...... tap dance didn't exist back then... see below

Tap dance emerged from mid-1800s competitions between African, Irish, and Scottish immigrant communities. The step, stomp, and rhythm dancing fused to form what is known as tap. Tap was extrememly popular in Vaudville and in films throughout the first half of the 20th century.

How great was that wedding??  Jamie was totally "Claire focused"...... wanted to look good for Claire.... insisted that Claire have a beautiful dress to wear for her sake - not his...... risked using his real name to insure the ceremony was legal so that Black Jack couldn't get to Claire.... and on and on into the wedding night...... sigh......

[imallbs]

As usuall, reading everyones comments gives me a greater appreciation for (and a new way of looking at) the events and characters in this book.  So here are more of my opinions

Chapter 14 "A Marriage Takes Place"
8. What was the best aspect of Claire and Jamie's wedding? The most romantic? The most surprising?

The most romantic part was how Jamie arranged for a real wedding for both him and Claire.  He knows Claire doesn't love him but he does love her and he shows it with his actions not with his words.  

I was a bit surprised that they were being married at the same chapel as Claire and Frank but what really surprised me was the blood oath.  

Claire -  “A blood vow? What do the words mean?”
Jamie – "About the same as the regular vows , just a little bit more…primitive”  


"That bad, was it?" - Jamie to Claire after their wedding.  Jamie knows his feelings are not returned – yet


Chapter 15 "Revelations of the Bridal Chamber"
9. In what ways were both Jamie and Claire vulnerable on their wedding night?

I agree that Claire was risking her friendship with Jamie turning into something deeper when she is still planning to get back to Frank.   Also there is the issue of trust.  She still doesn't know Jamie (and he doesn't really know her).  It takes a lot of trust to sleep (just sleep) with someone because you are totally vulnerable when you're sleeping.  I can see how she would be concerned when she found out Jamie slept armed

By this time Jamie is really in love with Claire.  He is risking embarrassment because he is a virgin and he is risking his heart because Claire could still reject him.  He's lost so much, I don't think he can stand to lose much more.

10. How do you feel about the issue of honesty (and Claire's hesitancy)?

Jamie is a smart man and knows that there are a lot of things Claire can't tell him, but he also has secrets. This was a way to give both of them the privacy they needed.

Didn't Claire's hesitancy come before Jamie said they could keep their secrets as long as what they did say was the truth?  She may have been worried to the she would not be believed and would have ended up in a lunacy asylum.

[Toby]

Ch. 14 - I liked the way that Jamie wanted to make the wedding so special for Claire. I think he loves her. I think, Claire is starting to fall in love, despite herself, resisting it, because she's married to Frank & because she wants to go back home to the future.
Surprised at the blood oath, actually horrified. Surprised at being at the same church that she married Frank. That would leave me feeling a bit unsettled.

I was surprised that Dougal would even take Claire to Black Jack fully knowing that he was a brutal, sadistic person. I supposed since he thought she was a spy, then he didn't care about her. Then again, at that point, maybe he didn't have a choice. If Black Jack wanted to see her, then Dougal had no choice. Then when he saw her face & condition afterwards, he charged up to confront Black Jack, which meant that he hadn't expected the brutality.

Yes, I was also wanting to know about if the ghost was Jamie, but thought it was. Yes, it's more than possible that he too time traveled.

I too am having trouble restraining myself from not reading the whole book. It's so good.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

I was surprised that Dougal would even take Claire to Black Jack fully knowing that he was a brutal, sadistic person. I supposed since he thought she was a spy, then he didn't care about her. Then again, at that point, maybe he didn't have a choice. If Black Jack wanted to see her, then Dougal had no choice.

I don't think Black Jack knew before Dougal brought Claire to him, that she was with the MacKenzies. 

Then when he saw her face & condition afterwards, he charged up to confront Black Jack, which meant that he hadn't expected the brutality.

That surprised me.  It took quite a bit of courage to confront someone with so much power.  Let's give Dougal some points for that.  Also for finding a way to defy Black Jack and protect Claire. 

The other thing that surprised me was that Randall didn't just keep Claire at that point, and send her back to Fort William under guard.  Instead, he demands that Dougal bring her to Fort William himself.  Is he testing his power over the MacKenzies? 

I too am having trouble restraining myself from not reading the whole book. It's so good.

As they say ... you ain't seen nothin' yet.   

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

I think I understand Dougal's rage when he saw what Black Jack had done to Claire. He still believed Claire was a spy, but I think he found out she wasn't in league with Black Jack, but she still could be a spy. Also, even though women during this time were considered chattel, they were still to be watched over and protected. A man could beat his own wife for disobedience, but the fact that Black Jack could be so brutal to a woman outraged Dougal's sense of morality. He was also a Scot with a nasty temper, so he reacted to seeing Claire in such a condition, without stopping to think about it first.

Black Jack was smart enough not to risk antagonizing the McKenzies, which is why he wanted Dougal to bring Claire to Ft. William. I think Dougal taking Claire to Black Jack in the first place was to see if she was really working for him or not.

Dougal knew how powerful his family was, which is part of the reason he wanted Claire to marry Jamie. If she was part of the McKenzie clan, then she would be under the protection of the clan. I doubt that this was the plan when they set out from Loech. It took seeing what Black Jack was capable of to make him realize that Claire needed protection. I wonder if it was sense of justice or the fact that Dougal cares for Claire that made him come up with this idea.

[Heidi]

Chapter 11 "Conversations with a Lawyer"

1. What are your impressions of Colum? Dougal? Ned Gowan?

I am impressed with Colum's leadership.  I don't trust Dougal around Claire as much as I trust Colum around Claire.  I think Ned was just giving some background that needed to be filled in. 

2. How do you feel about how Dougal uses Jamie for the Stuart cause?

It irritated me that Dougal was embarrasing and using Jamie to further his cause.  It also bothered me that Jamie didn't say anything to him. 

"I suppose Dougal can always tap-dance instead." - Claire to Jamie

Chapter 12 "The Garrison Commander"

3. What is your perception of Claire and Jamie's changing relationship? (He sleeps outside her door for protection...)  I'm falling in love with Jamie and I think Claire is too.

4. How has Claire changed between her first and second encounter with Black Jack Randall (at Fort William)?  I think she is more herself and not afraid to stand up to him. I loved when she told him his wig was crooked.  She is holding her own, just like Jamie.

"Your wig is crooked." - Claire to Jack Randall after he punches her.

Chapter 13 "A Marriage Is Announced"

5. How did you feel when first learning Claire and Jamie were to be married?  I was surprised and excited too.  Also a little confused as to what Claire was going to do after the fact.

6. What is the significance of the Pictish cross being mentioned again?  Hmmm.  I don't know.

Dougal stops at the crossroads with the Pictish cross and asks Claire if she is a spy and if so for whom.)

7. How did the description of Jamie's flogging affect you?  I hated hearing the details of the flogging but I think it gave insight into the kind of person Jamie was.  I was impressed that he didn't try to run or that he salvaged what little dignity he probably had left. 

Jamie was my patient, and to some extent, my friend as well.- Claire's thoughts at the crossroads.

Chapter 14 "A Marriage Takes Place"

8. What was the best aspect of Claire and Jamie's wedding? The most romantic? The most surprising?  I love the description of Jamie's dress.  I was surprised that the chapel was the same as the one she was married to Frank in.  I liked the blood ceremony and what it represented. 

"That bad, was it?" - Jamie to Claire after their wedding.


Chapter 15 "Revelations of the Bridal Chamber"

9. In what ways were both Jamie and Claire vulnerable on their wedding night?  Jamie because of it being his first time.  Claire because she wasn't able to be as truthful with Jamie as she may have liked to be.

10. How do you feel about the issue of honesty (and Claire's hesitancy)?  I think it was good of Jamie not to push or pressure her into telling him the truth about anything  but it also makes me wonder what Jamie is hiding. 

"Perhaps I am pretentious in saying so, but I would like to think that I am not many men,' and that I dinna necessarily place my behavior at the lowest common denominator." - Jamie to Claire on their wedding night

"Don't be afraid...There's the two of us now." - Jamie to Claire (who wonders why he has a knife with him on his wedding night)

[lesliejoy]

Ha!  I finally got here this week to answer the questions.

Chapter 11 "Conversations with a Lawyer"

1. What are your impressions of Colum? Dougal? Ned Gowan?  I think Colum is very intelligent and good leader.  I'm just not sure about Dougal, is he a bad guy or not? 

2. How do you feel about how Dougal uses Jamie for the Stuart cause?   I think Dougal enjoyed humiliating Jamie.  Would Dougal have done this sort of thing with anyone else in his group.  I don't think so. There is something between Dougal and Jamie that we don't know about yet.

"I suppose Dougal can always tap-dance instead." - Claire to Jamie

Chapter 12 "The Garrison Commander"

3. What is your perception of Claire and Jamie's changing relationship? (He sleeps outside her door for protection...)  I think Claire likes Jamie as a friend, I don't think there is any romantic feelings yet, she is still thinking about escaping.  But Jamie already has feelings for Claire


Chapter 13 "A Marriage Is Announced"

5. How did you feel when first learning Claire and Jamie were to be married?  I was a bit surprised but it was a smart and practical thing for Dougal to think of to save Claire.   He must care for Claire in some way, why does he suggest this?  He could've given her to Randall and been done with her.

6. What is the significance of the Pictish cross being mentioned again?  I think it's the same marker that Claire saw earlier.  I can't remember if she remembered if it was the same one.

Dougal stops at the crossroads with the Pictish cross and asks Claire if she is a spy and if so for whom.)

7. How did the description of Jamie's flogging affect you?  Terrible.   Randall is just evil, you know he just gets some weird perverse pleasure in hurting people. 

Jamie was my patient, and to some extent, my friend as well.- Claire's thoughts at the crossroads.

Chapter 14 "A Marriage Takes Place"

8. What was the best aspect of Claire and Jamie's wedding? The most romantic? The most surprising?  The best part? The wedding night?  The setting of the church seemed very romantic but strange for Claire since that's where she also married Frank.  Surprising, probably the blood oath.  I also thought it was romantic the Claire and Jamie talk for hours before consummating the marriage.

"That bad, was it?" - Jamie to Claire after their wedding.


Chapter 15 "Revelations of the Bridal Chamber"

9. In what ways were both Jamie and Claire vulnerable on their wedding night?  For Jamie it's his first time and for Claire she's breaking her marriage vows.

[Michael R. Hicks]

Chapter 11 "Conversations with a Lawyer"

1. What are your impressions of Colum? Dougal? Ned Gowan?

I have a lot of respect for Colum - he's obviously an exceptional leader, and an interesting character. Dougal - hmmm. The scheming younger brother? I liked Ned - he was cool.

2. How do you feel about how Dougal uses Jamie for the Stuart cause?

Well, as  general rule I don't care all that much for Dougal. This sort of reinforced it...

4. How has Claire changed between her first and second encounter with Black Jack Randall (at Fort William)?

While Randall obviously needs to have certain body parts removed without anasthetic, I thought it was great that Claire stood up to him. The jerk.

5. How did you feel when first learning Claire and Jamie were to be married?

Inevitable! LOL!!

7. How did the description of Jamie's flogging affect you?

I've read about floggings before somewhere...   But yeah, that was a great scene in terms of its vividness and emotional impact. Ow.

Chapter 15 "Revelations of the Bridal Chamber"

One of the things that I liked was that they talked and took some time (even brief though it was, in the great scheme of things) to talk to each other and make an emotional connection before doing anything physical. That was cool...

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

While Randall obviously needs to have certain body parts removed without anasthetic, I thought it was great that Claire stood up to him. The jerk.

Oh, yeah ... wedging is too good for Black Jack. 

I've read about floggings before somewhere...   But yeah, that was a great scene in terms of its vividness and emotional impact. Ow.

I think the comment I made about "the other flogging" was "worse than Jamie."

One of the things that I liked was that they talked and took some time (even brief though it was, in the great scheme of things) to talk to each other and make an emotional connection before doing anything physical. That was cool...

It's one of the things about Jamie and Claire's relationship that takes it out of the typical "romance" genre. 

Thanks for catching up. 

[Michael R. Hicks]

Thanks for catching up. 

I'm just trying to avoid getting spanked!

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

While Randall obviously needs to have certain body parts removed without anasthetic, I thought it was great that Claire stood up to him. The jerk.

Interesting idea. This would be even better than a wedgie.

Welcome back Mike. I have missed your comments.

[Michael R. Hicks]

Interesting idea. This would be even better than a wedgie.

Welcome back Mike. I have missed your comments.

Well, Gertie threatened me with the paddle!

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

Well, Gertie threatened me with the paddle!

Whatever it takes!!  Now if I could just get Harvey to drop by ...