OUTLANDER: Week of 2/2; Reading Chs 26-34, Discuss Chs 21-25 here

[Ann in Arlington]

One of two things might have happened if the vote had gone the other way.  Either we women would be having a great time or ... most likely ... when men were caught fooling around with aforesaid women having a great time, they could tell their wives that the woman was a witch and tempted him into it.  Then we'd be burned at the stake anyway.     I think I'll just take things the way they are.  

I will not defend the actions of the Catholic Church through much of it's existence. . .many things the church did were WRONG.  And even when shown to be wrong, they were frequently slow to admit it.  But, let's not forget, that the entire society in the 1700's was Very Different from what exists today.  The Jewish people also counted women as separate and perhaps lesser than men.  As did. . .and in some places still DO. . .the Islamic peoples.  In the best light it can be seen as the men trying to protect the women because they needed them to produce the continuing generations -- don't let 'em out by themselves because it's dangerous out there and if we lose the women our culture/tribe/family will not survive.

I think most people were trying to do things in the best way they knew how, when confronted with a whole lot of stuff they Did Not Understand.  And it is true that the Church was pretty powerful for a good part of the middle ages so when they said something it had a lot of force, and stuck around along time.  But don't forget that the Protestant reformation happened in the 1500's. . .well before the time in Jamie's and Claire's story.  The Church is still powerful, but is not the only power and may not even be the strongest.  And, as to atrocities, I would note that the Puritans. . .absolutely anti-Catholic. . .were, if anything, more judgmental of women of learning or skill.  It was, you'll recall, the Puritans of New England who figured in the Salem witch trials.

So. . . .just want to say, let's not, even by accident, imply that poor treatment of women throughout the ages is all the Catholic Church's fault. 

Ann

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

Anne:
You make a very good point. It was not just the Catholic Church that downplayed the importance of women. Through most of history, women have been looked down on and treated more as chattel by most societies and religions. There have been exceptions, but the idea of intelligent strong women is pretty much a newer western idea.

Jamie's treatment of Claire at times is also a reflection of this general mindset. However, along with that idea is the opinion that women needed protection. Remember when Jamie beat Claire for running away when he had told her to stay put. He also told her before her punishment, that if a man had put their lives in danger, he might have lost a body part, or been put to death. In view of that alternative, she got off rather easily, because she was a woman.

"Aye, so ye realize." he said. "Do ye know that if a man among us had done such a thing, to put the rest in danger, he would ha' likely had his ears cropped, or been flogged, if not killed outright?" Jamie explaining to Claire why she must be punished.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

So. . . .just want to say, let's not, even by accident, imply that poor treatment of women throughout the ages is all the Catholic Church's fault. 

Ann

I'm sorry that you inferred that from my post.  It was just something I have always found interesting, not to mention laughable. 

I am Catholic and choose to remain so.

[Ann in Arlington]

no worries, gertie. . . . I absolutely did NOT read anything you wrote as Catholic bashing.    Just wanted to clarify that back then there was a lot of (flawed?) rationale for treating women as subordinate and they didn't all come from the Church.  Heck, there still are!  Sometimes, you just can't change people's minds!

Ann

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

no worries, gertie. . . . I absolutely did NOT read anything you wrote as Catholic bashing.    Just wanted to clarify that back then there was a lot of (flawed?) rationale for treating women as subordinate and they didn't all come from the Church.  Heck, there still are!  Sometimes, you just can't change people's minds!

Ann

So true.  As I am very fond of saying ... Times change, but people don't. 

[imallbs]

The parents of the child testified, "We watched through the nicht, sirs.  And when the dark came, soon after there cam' a great demon, a huge black shape comin' through the shadows wi' no sound, to lean ower the spot where we'd laid the babe."

That was Jamie. 

Thanks, I remember that now


I'm looking forward to the next chapters.  This part of the book has reminded me about the books I've read on the witch trials in the American colonies.  I haven't read much about the European trials, I think I'll go check the Kindle store for some book ideas.

[Michael R. Hicks]

Chapter 21 "Un Mauvais Quart d'Heure After Another"

9. Claire is bold enough to mess with the things in Randall's office and taunt him when he tries to rape her. Was this a risk or did she feel confident enough to handle Randall? Or is she just reckless?

Well, she's reckless, but I thought it was great. He's such a swine!

10. After rescuing her, does Jamie treat her fairly in light of what she did?

Well, at one point where Claire had done something - it was before Jamie had told her she was going to get whapped if she ran from the spot he left her - I shook my head and commented to Jan, "Claire really needs a good spanking!" Jan said, "You won't be disappointed."

And he was absolutely fair - it was a needed wakeup call for Claire that she wasn't in the 20th century anymore, and that she had to take some responsibility for her actions. Personally, I thought it was overdue - up to that point she was getting rather irritating...

13. Claire begins to feel indecision about leaving Jamie for the stone circle. With what we know at this point, what would you have done if you were Claire?[/b]

Hmm, stay with Jamie, or go back to Frank? Is there really a question here??

But that's often the essence of life, isn't it: do the "right and proper" thing, or follow your heart. Not always an easy choice...

14. Which love is stronger: Claire's love for Jamie, Claire's love for Frank, Or Jamie's love for Claire?

Jamie's love for Claire. He knows himself well and accepts what he feels, and he's willing to sacrifice himself for her. Claire's still torn between the now and the past/future, not fully acknowledging her feelings - which are still just blooming - for Jamie, even as her love for Frank is perhaps fading as her love for Jamie (much as she tells herself she doesn't want it to) grows.

2. How did you feel about Jamie's "facts-of-life" talk with Hamish?

I was DYYYIIIN', as Bugs Bunny would say! That was a total crackup!

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

And he was absolutely fair - it was a needed wakeup call for Claire that she wasn't in the 20th century anymore, and that she had to take some responsibility for her actions. Personally, I thought it was overdue - up to that point she was getting rather irritating...

Yes, it was a wake-up call.  Good way to put it. 

But there's a difference between understandin' something with your mind and really knowing it deep down.

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

Well, at one point where Claire had done something - it was before Jamie had told her she was going to get whapped if she ran from the spot he left her - I shook my head and commented to Jan, "Claire really needs a good spanking!" Jan said, "You won't be disappointed."

And he was absolutely fair - it was a needed wakeup call for Claire that she wasn't in the 20th century anymore, and that she had to take some responsibility for her actions. Personally, I thought it was overdue - up to that point she was getting rather irritating...

Spoken like a true man!

[Michael R. Hicks]

2. How did you feel about Jamie's "facts-of-life" talk with Hamish?

I was laughing my butt off!

3. Upon the first reading, who did you think the "ill-wish" that Claire found came from?

I suspected it was from Leoghaire (or however the heck her name is spelled!). "Hell hath no fury..."

4. Why is Jamie so attractive to gay men? (Such as Sandringham)

No secret there: the same reason he's attractive to women! Rarr!

5. How did you feel about the incident with the changeling?

I completely understand how Claire felt, but once again it was a further wakeup call that she wasn't in Kansas anymore. People even today can be very superstitious - particularly when under stress - but back then it was an extremely serious thing, particularly among the uneducated. Even had she gotten the child and managed to cure it, I find it extremely unlikely the parents would have accepted it, or just as likely would have killed it, thinking it possessed or some such. But that's always one thing I'll never understand: why people seem to want to believe something that they don't understand is the work of Satan and not of God. Go figure...

7. What did you think really happened when Geillis hypnotized Claire?

She was obviously fishing for information about/from Claire.

8. How did you feel about Claire and Geillis being put into the theives' hole at Cranesmuir after
Claire was tricked?

I was thinking that Leoghaire *really* needed a spanking...

9. What are your impressions of Claire and Geillis' witch trial? Is anyone familiar with The
Crucible by Arthur Miller? If so, did this remind you of it?

No big surprises: fairly standard "burn the witch" stuff until Ned showed up...

10. How did you feel about Father Bain and Ned Gowan at the trial?

Father Bain: pin-headed porker with the IQ of a stinkbug. Ned: brilliant lawyer who'd make an excellent congressman for his ability to filibuster!

11. What did you think about Jamie's rescue of Claire and her subsequent revelation regarding
her origins? Jamie's reactions?

About as I expected, although it spoke well of Geillis that she created a diversion to help Claire escape - I didn't expect that. As for Jamie's reactions...again it shows the depth of his character and his love for Claire. It's just a good thing that he was extremely well-educated, so the possibilities were within his intellectual grasp. My only real curiosity is this: having entered the past and revealed elements of the future, has Claire changed the temporal flow, or was she always part of the history that had come to pass by her time?

12. When Claire is taken back to the stones, what is your reaction? Was Jamie being noble or
testing her love for him?

It was inevitable that Jamie would take her back; his sense of honor wouldn't allow him to do otherwise. But I also knew that Claire wouldn't go (at least not yet) - it would've shortened the book quite a bit! LOL!

13. If they had parted at the stones, would their goodbye have been enough for them?

Umm, no.

14. How did you feel when Jamie announced that he was taking Claire home to Lallybroch?

Yay! Let's go explore some more the Scottish countryside! 

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

I suspected it was from Leoghaire (or however the heck her name is spelled!). "Hell hath no fury..."

I use the phonetic spelling  - Laheer.  It can also be pronounced Leary, and Claire should be "leery" of her.   

No big surprises: fairly standard "burn the witch" stuff until Ned showed up...

Father Bain: pin-headed porker with the IQ of a stinkbug. Ned: brilliant lawyer who'd make an excellent congressman for his ability to filibuster!

Father Bain is somewhat like Father Hernandez; isolated, as superstitious as his parishioners.  The difference is that Hernandez not only accepted Reza but accepted the call to explore the larger world. 

My only real curiosity is this: having entered the past and revealed elements of the future, has Claire changed the temporal flow, or was she always part of the history that had come to pass by her time?

That's the conundrum of time travel.  As Harry said to Hermione, he knew he could cast the Patronus Charm because he had done it before when he went back in time.

You'll see later how Father Anselm explains it pretty well.  That's not a spoiler. 

Thanks for dropping by, Mike.