Adult

[Christine Merrill]

I'm sorry, but I don't agree at all.  How is putting "Contains sex and mild violence" in the description of your book censoring??

Ok.  I'm using a loaded word that doesn't convey what I'm trying to express.   A label does not keep someone from having access to the material.  But it can create a kind of self censorship in the reader.  

To do this fairly, everything should be labeled in the same way.  Otherwise, you label and limit your audience, while the book next to you chooses not to.   There are people that buy everything by the label, not accounting for personal taste.  And, unless your book is nonstop swearing, sex, violence, or whatever, the label you are putting on it is not going to reflect the majority of the book.  You are marketing your work based on a fragment of the total.  People will reject it, based on that fragment without reading any of it.  Hence the self censorship.

If we want to be %100 honest about content, one F bomb in the middle needs some kind of warning, because that's a brief use of language that some people would never use.   But then, you are encouraging people to judge a book on one word, rather than a 50 page sample, a blurb, or even a cover.

In my case, and in my opinion, the one story that's totally mine is far tamer than the majority of my romance work.  There is a fair amount of swearing instead, which is not something I do in the other books.  And one scene that I would consider sexual content but no sex.  But some readers feel the exact opposite, and have told me so.  They think it's too violent, and would rather have the sex.  How do I label for them?

If you don't tell them what's in it, they will skim the bits they don't want to remember.  That's what people do with the parts of my romances they don't like.  And then, they give me a sad look and say, "I wish you didn't have so much  ....  in your books."  

In front of my kids.  On my birthday.  At dinner.

And then, they buy the next one.  And they say the same thing.  And recommend my books to their friends.  People make a fuss about content.  But as far as I can tell, it's mostly for show.  They like to disapprove, and if they were authors, they would never behave like me and write bad words.  But they don't stop reading.

The label I really want to put on Need to Know is not a romance.  Because my audience is going to be more upset about that then anything else.  So I didn't give it a romance cover.  But if I keep calling attention to it with comments and labels, it looks like I'm either apologizing for the current book, or the previous ones.  It calls attention to negatives and not to positives.

Also (the librarian speaking again) yes, we label things by subject.  An erotica label would be helpful to people that like or avoid really hot books. 

But mild violence and/or language is not the subject of the book.  It's a judgment call on the social acceptibility of a portion of the content.  It does not help people figure out what the book is about.  (writer again) It tells them not to buy something that you are trying to sell.

It is impossible to protect children or teens from adult material.  Labeling your books as such is like a red flag in front of a bull.  Parents should not be letting kids buy any books off Kindle, or anywhere else, if they care what they read.  Books are dangerous.  That's half the fun of them.  

 

[swolf]

If you don't tell them what's in it, they will skim the bits they don't want to remember.  That's what people do with the parts of my romances they don't like.  And then, they give me a sad look and say, "I wish you didn't have so much  ....  in your books."  

In front of my kids.  On my birthday.  At dinner.

That sucks.  Sorry to hear that.


But I think your argument is based upon gray areas - is it or isn't it? - when I think the OP was discussing when it IS.  When you know that your content is intended for adults, should you let them know?

As for the gray areas, we're not talking about a rigid rating system.  We're talking about a blurb that warns the reader.  Most reasonable people understand things like "some violence", "mild sexual content", "frequent profantity", etc.  And those who are not reasonable are going to be unreasonable no matter what we do.

[Glenn Bullion]

Hmm I never thought about labeling anything I write.

Like others have said, I'm hoping cover art and expectations of the horror genre itself will cover that for me.  My next book, about zombies, will, of course, have zombies on the cover.  I'm hoping that will convey the message that "people will die in this book, and there will be zombies walking around, possibly eating people".  Maybe even that "heads will be rolling down stairs leaving blood trails." 

[J Dean]

It's always good to be as clear and honest about it as you can.  For two reasons:  First, it's a selling point, and many people are looking for it.  Secondly, there are just as many people looking to avoid it, and making readers angry with you is never a good thing.

+10

I'm one of those readers who is not particularly interested in reading books that center on, or have a substantial amount of, adult content-i.e., excessive, graphic sex and violence.

[Victorine]

Ok.  I'm using a loaded word that doesn't convey what I'm trying to express.   A label does not keep someone from having access to the material.  But it can create a kind of self censorship in the reader.  

To do this fairly, everything should be labeled in the same way.  Otherwise, you label and limit your audience, while the book next to you chooses not to.   There are people that buy everything by the label, not accounting for personal taste.  And, unless your book is nonstop swearing, sex, violence, or whatever, the label you are putting on it is not going to reflect the majority of the book.  You are marketing your work based on a fragment of the total.  People will reject it, based on that fragment without reading any of it.  Hence the self censorship.

You can't tell me you won't sell books based on one sentence in your blurb stating what you get when you buy the book.  Look at the movies and television shows that are labeled and rated for content.  Some of the most popular shows have strong warnings!  (Just about every Fox show starts off with a "Viewer Discretion Advised" warning.)

The only thing you're doing is letting people know what they are getting.  You avoid people getting upset and leaving one star reviews because they weren't expecting a sex scene in the book.

I agree, if you've got naked people on your cover, you are essentially doing this anyway.  But some covers don't convey what is in the book.

Vicki

[J Dean]

You can't tell me you won't sell books based on one sentence in your blurb stating what you get when you buy the book.  Look at the movies and television shows that are labeled and rated for content.  Some of the most popular shows have strong warnings!  (Just about every Fox show starts off with a "Viewer Discretion Advised" warning.)

The only thing you're doing is letting people know what they are getting.  You avoid people getting upset and leaving one star reviews because they weren't expecting a sex scene in the book.

I agree, if you've got naked people on your cover, you are essentially doing this anyway.  But some covers don't convey what is in the book.

Vicki

Agreed. There is a difference between labeling and censorship.  You have the right to say what you want, but you have the responsibility to be honest enough to inform me what you're going to say and how you're going to say it.

[flanneryohello]

I write a lot of romance and erotica, and none of my books are appropriate for children. A couple of my books deal with serious themes such as sexual violence and abuse, which is talked about but not depicted. There's no way in the world children should be reading my work.

My publisher has never placed warning labels on my work. However, the covers, the blurbs/summaries, and the genres into which my books are categorized act as their own "warning". Nobody is going to look at my books, read the back cover copy, then buy it for their kid. If they do, a "contains adult themes" disclaimer wouldn't have stopped them, either.

I'm less concerned about protecting adults. lol.

This issue may be a bit more clear-cut for people who are writing clearly adult work like romance/erotica. I can appreciate that if you've got a mystery/suspense book with a shocking scene of sexual violence, you may feel compelled to warn people ahead of time. I'm hesitant to offer such warnings on my work. I agree with Julie that if I do my job packaging and marketing my book in a way that accurately reflects the content, I shouldn't need to impose additional warnings or even a "rating" on it. If my mystery novel contains violence that is integral to the plot, I can stick a line in my summary/blurb about "an act of shocking violence" or other similarly coded language.

Thing is, even with all the warnings in the world, your book might offend someone's sensibilities. There's no way to avoid that without doing something along the lines of what the Kids-In-Mind movie review website does when creating reviews for parents to determine if a film is appropriate for their kids. They literally give you a laundry list of potentially objectionable content: "A man hits a woman across the face", "A woman changes her clothing, exposing her cleavage", "A man and a woman make love beneath the covers". Sure, that's great when I want to know whether my five-year-old should watch a movie that is being marketed as a children's film (but may not be what I want my kid to see), but to do something similar for my books? No thanks. I'd rather assume that anyone who buys my books after seeing how they're described and marketed will be enough of a grown-up to accept that even if certain content exceeds their comfort level, they weren't exactly duped into purchasing something that promised to be something else.

I once had a reader email me to complain that she didn't like the use of the f-word in a sex scene I'd written. This was a romance so the characters were in love and the sex happened within the context of a passionate relationship. This reader felt that having one character talk about f-ing the other wasn't loving--that the use of this word in that situation somehow negated the idea that what they were doing was based on real emotion. Well, I don't personally feel that way (I think adults who love each other can get fun & dirty during those times, and use all kinds of language). Obviously plenty of my readers agree. Point is, I would never in a million years have imagined someone getting offended by that word, in that context, for that reason. This woman didn't object to the graphic sex or, as far as I can tell, strong language in other contexts.

So at the end of the day, I think I'd rather take my chances that someone might be offended by something rather than try to imagine all the different ways that I need to disclaim my work. To me saying something like "Contains adult themes" or even "Contains strong language and violence" is so incredibly generic as to be useless. Look at my book covers and read the descriptions--you'll see that they contain adult themes. They're classified as romance and/or erotic romance--readers interested in romance and/or erotic romance surely understand what that means. The books I've written where violence is a theme? It's mentioned--at least hinted at--within the description.

I've got to believe that's enough. It's enough for traditionally published books, at least. I don't want to do something for self-published work that isn't standard, and that further sets me apart from the rest of the crowd. If I don't know how to market my work to the right audience, that's where my focus should be. Not on writing overly general disclaimers or, alternatively, lists of spoilers.

[Christine Merrill]

That sucks.  Sorry to hear that.

No need for pity.    I actually thought it was pretty funny, and pretty typical of the company I was in.  And I am very used to feeling like the metaphorical (but unabashed) whore in church. Although not actually in church.  I came out about my subject matter pretty early over there, and no one batted an eye.

But I usually do not call attention to the details of certain scenes when I am in social settings.  Not going to donate a gift basket at the school charity auction for instance.  I suspect there would be shocked tutt-tutting about peddling smut around minors.  Though I do not consider my work to be smutty, I do not actively seek out people under the age of 18 and encourage them to read my books.

And this is as far as I'll go towards not marketing adult work to youth.  If it is in a bookstore, and not in the children's or YA department, it should be assumed to be adult oriented work with a possibility of objectionable content.

As far as people rejecting you based on a single line in the blurb?  Yes, definitely.  That is exactly what I mean.  Readers do this all the time.  It's why the marketing departments sweat long and hard over the packaging of the book, down to ridiculous details that no one will consciously notice.  It is also why I've gotten titles that have made me roll my eyes and dive under the table, only to see them sell like crazy.  People look at the title, the cover and the marketing, and make a snap decision on whether or not to open the book.

And the one star reviews?

Everyone gets them.  No matter what you do, you will not get %100 approval.  With all the warnings in the world, someone will hate you.  They will just find another reason. It is a nasty shock when it happens, and someone declares you DNF.  But take that star and wear it as a badge of pride.  Remember:  a single gold star on your story used to be a gold thing.

[Victorine]

Obviously everyone can do what they want.  There's no law against not putting a blurb about the content of your book.  Personally, I like knowing what I'm getting, so I'll continue to describe my content as best as I can.

But really, if someone would not buy your book based on a statement that there's adult content in the book, do you really want them buying it when you don't put that in the description?

I sell on Ebay.  I try to describe my product as accurately as I can so I don't get negative feedback.  I see this as the same thing.  I don't want people returning the book or feeling like they didn't get what they thought they were getting.

And you're right, everyone will get one star reviews.  There are just complainers that no matter what you do, they're not happy.

In the end, everyone will do what they feel is best.  And that's fine, no one is advocating making it a law to put labels on books.

Vicki

[flanneryohello]

But really, if someone would not buy your book based on a statement that there's adult content in the book, do you really want them buying it when you don't put that in the description?

Personally, my hesitation with placing content warnings on my work has nothing to do with fear that someone won't buy the book if I do. Because you're right--if someone doesn't want to read adult content, I don't want them buying my book. I just feel like there are so many other ways to signal the tone and type of book you're selling than a blatant "Contains adult content" disclaimer. What does "adult content" mean, anyway?

I have to admit, another part of my distaste with including this type of disclaimer is the fact that it seems...I don't know...unprofessional, in a way. That's probably not the right word to use. But here's why I say that--I never, ever see these types of disclaimers on traditionally published novels. You know where I see them? Fan fiction. They're everywhere in fan fiction. So when I see a disclaimer like that on a Kindle book, it immediately feels (to me) more in line with fan fiction than a professionally produced and published novel.

People who haven't been exposed to fan fiction would obviously not feel the same way. And it may be a crazy association to make. But there it is, the twisted inner workings of my mind.

[Victorine]

Well I do agree with you, in that your cover and description should give the reader enough clues so they would know there's adult content.  However, I don't see anything wrong with putting one sentence in your description.

But, if you feel it makes you seem unprofessional, let your cover/genre speak for itself.

Me?  I wrote a romance novel without any sex in it.  I don't want people to buy it expecting scenes which aren't in there.  So I felt like one sentence in the description would help people know what they're getting.  I don't think it's slowing sales any.  (And I do know people who don't like romance novels without sex.)

But I will give you this - I did not put a blurb about mild violence in the book because I figured the Mystery/Suspense tag, and the knife on the cover, would let people know that murder is in the book.

Vicki

[Bards and Sages (Julie)]

But I will give you this - I did not put a blurb about mild violence in the book because I figured the Mystery/Suspense tag, and the knife on the cover, would let people know that murder is in the book.

Wait a minute...you mean your book ISN'T about a woman pretending to be a chef?  I thought that was a steak knife.  I feel totally ripped off! 

[Victorine]

Wait a minute...you mean your book ISN'T about a woman pretending to be a chef?  I thought that was a steak knife.  I feel totally ripped off! 

[EllenFisher]

I don't label my regular romances.  I think it's fairly clear from the covers that they likely have the usual amount of sex for the genre.  If I get negative feedback about that, I might change it, but I figure romance buyers usually have a good idea what they're getting.

I do label my erotic romances, partly as a warning and partly in the hopes that all that detailed dirty stuff will help sell books.

[CIBond]

Personally, my hesitation with placing content warnings on my work has nothing to do with fear that someone won't buy the book if I do. Because you're right--if someone doesn't want to read adult content, I don't want them buying my book. I just feel like there are so many other ways to signal the tone and type of book you're selling than a blatant "Contains adult content" disclaimer. What does "adult content" mean, anyway?
 

This is the problem… when someone says “Adult Content” I think… brown-wrapper, not sold in grocery stores, graphic porn sort of thing.  That’s my gut reaction, I don’t object to porn I just find it boring and plot-less so I will avoid it.  If it is 80% porn then that’s what it is… but if you label something because it carries one sex scene then you are misleading people and losing sales.  A good description of the book is an excellent choice and should advise the reader of what to expect in general but a label needs to represent the majority of the text.  I have some historic cannibalism in my first scene… so the reader gets the idea of the book pretty quickly but the sex scene maybe a surprise.  However, if I said that there was a sex scene it would be a spoiler.  Lots of people skim the parts they don’t like.  Lots of romances are out there with more graphic sex scenes than I have but if I labeled it as “Adult Content” then anyone who bought it would be very disappointed because they would expect something a lot more hard-core.  

[flanneryohello]

This is the problem… when someone says “Adult Content” I think… brown-wrapper, not sold in grocery stores, graphic porn sort of thing.  That’s my gut reaction, I don’t object to porn I just find it boring and plot-less so I will avoid it.  If it is 80% porn then that’s what it is… but if you label something because it carries one sex scene then you are misleading people and losing sales.  A good description of the book is an excellent choice and should advise the reader of what to expect in general but a label needs to represent the majority of the text.  I have some historic cannibalism in my first scene… so the reader gets the idea of the book pretty quickly but the sex scene maybe a surprise.  However, if I said that there was a sex scene it would be a spoiler.  Lots of people skim the parts they don’t like.  Lots of romances are out there with more graphic sex scenes than I have but if I labeled it as “Adult Content” then anyone who bought it would be very disappointed because they would expect something a lot more hard-core. 

Exactly. Warnings like this are just too vague unless you're being totally spoilerish.

I think you bring up an interesting point about misrepresenting one's work through being overly concerned about disclaiming content. I think there's a real danger of making your work seem more sensational than it really is. If I bought a book that contained warnings about sexual scenes, etc., I'd probably be inclined to think I was in for quite a ride. If the book only contained one relatively mild sex scene, well, I'd be disappointed! lol. Everyone's mileage varies and I think you get into trouble when trying to quantify or categorize the content in a book like this. What one person considers extreme or offensive may not even blip on another person's radar.

As a reader, content warnings also turn me off for a different reason. I like graphic, realistic, adult novels. If I'm looking at a book and there's a disclaimer "Contains strong language and/or a sex scene" or something, I don't know...I guess I feel like if the author finds the mere existence of strong language and/or a sex scene to be so potentially objectionable that they need to warn readers ahead of time, there's a good chance that the book will be too watered down for my tastes. Like, if the author thinks it's that big a deal (when many, many books contain language and sex scenes at varying levels of explicitness), then perhaps our world views or tastes don't really line up. On the flip side, if I then buy that book and find a relatively tame (to my tastes) sex scene, I'll probably wonder what the big deal was and why the author felt a disclaimer was necessary. I may even feel ripped off that I was promised something so scandaluous it merited a disclaimer, yet the story didn't deliver that.

At the end of the day, authors who are afraid to offend people probably aren't producing work I'm all that interested in reading. Not because I only like dirty, violent, horrible stuff, but because the lack of confidence in one's work and marketing techniques this implies just sort of turns me off. However, I know there are plenty of readers who are more sensitive than me who would appreciate such warnings.

Just goes to show you can't please all the people, all the time.

[nomesque]

I'm not afraid to offend people. I do write YA and more adult books under the same name, so I simply ensure that the 'adult' books are marked as unsuitable for YA.

[Christine Merrill]

But really, if someone would not buy your book based on a statement that there's adult content in the book, do you really want them buying it when you don't put that in the description?

Will they pay me?

That probably sounds horrible.  But that's about as far as I think about it.  A sale is a sale.  I don't actively want people to be shocked or disappointed or made unhappy by my work.  But I think they have to look out for themselves as far as choosing to buy it or not.  They can return it, or give me a bad review, or they can email me and complain.   But the story is what it is.  I'm very happy with it.  I cannot make it suitable for all audiences.

As long as I'm not forcing it on them, I'm not going to feel too bad.  I'm not coming into their house to read it out loud, or sending bits of it in emails and saying 'look at my book!'  And no matter how I label it, I'm not taking it over to cheap daily reads, because their FAQs make me think it's not their kind of book.

But people who pay for it chose to buy.  I'm providing at least a 50 page sample, which they could have read, if they'd wanted to.  No sex in it.  But I think I must have sworn, and I killed at least one person.  I am rated R for language.  Beyond that, I'm not giving them any help in deciding they might not like me.

[CIBond]

But the story is what it is.  I'm very happy with it.  I cannot make it suitable for all audiences.

I think this is basically the issue.  If you are within the general “norm” of books that are freely sold in grocery stores then you shouldn’t have to put a warning on the book.  There are genre conventions, of course but generally you can find “Romance Level Sex” in Fantasy, Sci-Fi, and other genres.  You can also find some real-world-swearing in lots of fiction.  It may surprise the reader but it shouldn’t be something that they have never been exposed to.  If you go beyond that – Bestiality, extensive S&M, lots and lots of graphic sex, then you are outside the “grocery store norm” and should have a warning. 

The same holds for the reader.  If you are offended by a garden variety romance or the F-bomb then you should put a warning on yourself.  It is much easier to do this than to change the world.  Limit your choices to YA, and “Christian” romances and then you won’t ever get shocked.  If we do anything else the book warnings will look like the medical warnings on a bottle of aspirin. 

[foreverjuly]

Any young kids seeking out erotica or porn can easily find it these days, I don't think they need to go searching the descriptions of books on Amazon. 

Vicki

I'm sorry to say this, but you sound out of touch with today's youth. Amazon.com is the epicenter for teens' lascivious behavior.

[RobertMarda]

Of course, the flip side of the coin is that there is a portion of the young adult population that will expressly seek out anything with a "warning label." And if placing a warning on your book is there solely to prevent young people from reading it, it can have the opposite effect unless there is also a gatekeeper enforcing the label.

Very true.  I would still prefer the warning label.  It makes it clearer to anyone what they are getting.  Once the labels are there then it is easier for parents to explain them to their children and make it clear what they think of certain types of content, what they approve of and what they don't.  Once that is accomplished then the children who choose to accept their parents judgment will use the labels to avoid what their parents don't approve of and those that don't will then go straight for everything with warning labels.

We already have this with movies.  The labels are there and young adults have some idea of what they mean and will go for what they want regardless of what their parents say.

...I wrote a romance novel without any sex in it.  I don't want people to buy it expecting scenes which aren't in there.  ...

Which is the reason I bought your book, I had the assurance it wouldn't have content I didn't want to read.

---------
And for my part I figure if an author is willing to use swear words once in a book then they will do it again.  So I would prefer to know even if there is one swear word in the book so that I can move on to the next book.

I do understand what some of you are saying that genre, marketing, and covers help let a reader know what they are getting.  Either I don't understand the clues or there just isn't any that will let me know if there is swearing in a book or not.  If a labeling system for books were to emerge as a standard I would hope it would be good enough to let a reader know if there was a lot of potentially questionable content or just a little.  I feel the labels and ratings for movies do a pretty good job at helping me understand what is in the movie that I may object to.