Does anyone share my pricing concerns?

[Ali Cooper]

I'm playing around with price now while my tax gets sorted out.

A couple of weeks ago I raised my price in US from $2.99 to $3.99. The first week sales dropped a bit. Now they've plummeted and so has my rank and so have my earnings. Do I think the book is worth $3.99? Yes. Am I in a hurry to raise the price? Not yet. But if the rank drops much lower I will be because I'm worried it will look to customers that no-one's interested in it.

I think the perceived upper limit for an indie book is $2.99 and that authors have caused this with all the $2.99 promotion threads. I'm beginning to introduce $3.99 promotion threads and hope other authors will do the same. But at the moment nearly every author posting on the thread is advertising that their book is $2.99 or 99c.

There are lots of people saying that pricing your book at 99c doesn't hurt anyone else but I think it very definitely does - especially if it's a very high quality full length book. It's perpetuating the idea that indie writers are an underclass whose books - however good - are practically worthless.

[daringnovelist]

Ali (and everyone):

Do you have more than one or two books to play with?  If you don't, I suggest leave it where you feel comfortable. Don't let anyone else convince you to mess with prices prematurely.  Churning doesn't help anyone.  Conversations like this should be for thinking about things in the background, before setting your price.  Think about it in the background.

(That's why, even though I think Vicki would do better at a higher price, I do NOT think she should change her price.  She's got a plan, and she's sticking to it.  Sticking to your plan is a GOOD thing.  Discuss and consider changes, but don't make the until you are ready to commit to them for good or bad.)

IMHO, nothing is going to work great until you have an actual body of work.  Look at Joe Konrath -- he just posted about how he can't predict his own books. One book will do consistantly well for months, and another hardly sell, and then suddenly they'll swap places.  He made no change.  Books just do that.  It's easy to understand and deal with if you have a bunch of books.

Camille

[K. A. Jordan]

I found this gem in my email. This is a new publishing company that appears to be doing very well. This is what they say about prices:

We're focusing soon on shorts.  10-15 thousand words at $2.99.

Kinda puts a different spin on things, doesn't it? I'm trying to get my head around this. We sit here on Kindleboards, debating $.99 novels, and these people are talking $2.99 for short stories.

I reduced my book to $.99 - until August.

[Victorine]

There are some amazingly talented folks on these boards who I really feel shortchange their gods-given talent by thinking they can't sell at higher than 99 cents.  It's like having a beautiful and kind friend who stays with a deadbeat boyfriend because she doesn't think anyone else would want her.   

Well, my dead-beat boyfriend is paying me over $7,000 for January sales.  And over $3,000 for December.  I'm pretty happy with my dead-beat boyfriend.  Sure, I *might* get paid more if I change him for a brand new not so dead-beat guy, but there's a chance the new guy will pay me less.  (Shockingly, it's happened to other people who changed in their dead-beats.)

Sorry if you all feel sorry for me, sticking with a loser boyfriend.    (I actually really like that analogy.  And I'm not being snarky at all.)

Vicki

[Ali Cooper]

Ali (and everyone):

Do you have more than one or two books to play with?  If you don't, I suggest leave it where you feel comfortable. Don't let anyone else convince you to mess with prices prematurely.  Churning doesn't help anyone.  Conversations like this should be for thinking about things in the background, before setting your price.  Think about it in the background.

(That's why, even though I think Vicki would do better at a higher price, I do NOT think she should change her price.  She's got a plan, and she's sticking to it.  Sticking to your plan is a GOOD thing.  Discuss and consider changes, but don't make the until you are ready to commit to them for good or bad.)

IMHO, nothing is going to work great until you have an actual body of work.  Look at Joe Konrath -- he just posted about how he can't predict his own books. One book will do consistantly well for months, and another hardly sell, and then suddenly they'll swap places.  He made no change.  Books just do that.  It's easy to understand and deal with if you have a bunch of books.

Camille

Hi Camille,

One book up and the second being prepared. But as I can't go self-employed until US tax is sorted out and as that is likely to take a few months yet, this is an opportunity to play with pricing. It's also a good time to do it so I can plan any sort of strategy (such as the introductory price) for my second book.

I previously raised the price to $3.99 last July. The sales dropped and the rank did a bit but not nearly as much as they have now. When I raised the price before I didn't know about the August slump and the expected lower sales figures. I also know people who were getting a lot of sales at $3.99 last Spring but have dropped the price during the past few months due to falling sales and earnings.

I know it's only a couple of weeks but my honest opinion is that, due to so much underpricing, we're all now on a slippery slope and that readers now expect lower prices than they did a year ago. Authors previously doing well at $3.99 are now having to reduce their price to get the same sales - for the same great books and even with the benefit of extra good reviews.

If anyone has evidence to the contrary please say so because I'd love to be proved wrong.

[JimJohnson]

Kinda puts a different spin on things, doesn't it? I'm trying to get my head around this. We sit here on Kindleboards, debating $.99 novels, and these people are talking $2.99 for short stories.

Well, it's like William Goldman said: "Nobody knows nothing."

Some say .99 cents is too low, some say $9.99 is too high. Truth's somewhere in the middle. Where exactly? Pick 'em.

[Bards and Sages (Julie)]

I think the perceived upper limit for an indie book is $2.99

Which of course circles back to the point that nobody will know you are "indie" unless you actually tell them.  If you have a professional looking book with a professional book blurb and presentation, the average consumer won't know whether or not you are "indie" or "traditionally published.  And really, most people don't even know what indies mean when we say things like "traditionally" published.  They don't draw that line in the sand.  WE do that.  There are really only two groups that use the term "traditionally published" on a regular basis, indie authors and people who spend too much time on author sites.  

[Archer]

Perhaps, rather than 'indie author', we should substitute 'new/unknown author'. Reader feedback indicates reluctance to take a chance on an unknown for a high price. Casual examination of sales rankings for newbies charging $9.99 indicates that their sales are almost nonexistent. 

I have definitely formulated a strategy: I view the trilogy as a unit rather than as three separate books. The first one has been 99cents for a while...the other 2 are priced higher. It's my intention to leave it that way, as I can introduce readers to my style/story without their investing too much. Those who love it will cheerfully pay more to finish the tale. When my new series debuts, I should have little difficulty selling the first book to the readers who have followed me from the beginning. Not sure what the price will be yet, but it will probably be higher than 99cents.

A few of the most active 'fans' of the series have confided that they would not have tried it had the price been higher. That convinced me, as they have since recommended and increased sales. I would have missed out had I not enticed them to try my work.

[Edward C. Patterson]

Okay. I'm coming out of the closet. I'm an Indie.
"It's no sindy to be an Indie. Get over it."
(I still like the I'm hear, I'm queer, better, but hey!)

Will you come out of your Indie closet today?  

Point Given - Edward C. Patterson
Never live the lie

[BTackitt]

one of the "romance" genre e-publishers has a listing on their site of what price relates to what length of e-book. When I got some of their books, I found the pricing structure to be fair. I'll see if I can find them again, it's been a couple of years. If I can I'll post their pricing structure.

--
ok structure breakdown
     NOVELLETTE: 10,000-15,000   $1.99

     NOVELLA:    15,000-30,000 words $2.99
   
     NOVEL:    30,000-55,000 words  $3.99
   
     FULL NOVEL:    55,000-80,000 words  $4.99
   
     PLUS NOVEL:    80,000-100,000 words $5.99
   
     SUPER PLUS NOVEL:    100,000-150,000 words $6.99
   
     HUMONGOUS NOVEL:    150,000+ words $7.99
 

[Atunah]

How do I find out what the word counts mean in real life use. I would like to know where the books I usually buy fit in, but wordcount is pretty useless to me  . I finally got used to locations and for me if I get 4500-5500 thats about a good size book. At 7500 its a nice size book. I get some that are just under 4000 and they still ok as far as full novel for me.

 Then of course there are those Outlander hefties with 19000 locations 

Just curious is there is any other way to convert the wordcount. I usually only see authors talk in wordcount, doesn't really help me as a reader much though.

Is there a way to count the words in a kindle book? 

[Doomed Muse]

It was Samhain, but they changed their website recently. Basically they were pricing novellas (10,000-30,000 words I think) at 3.49 and novels at 5.50 or so.  I checked their new website, but couldn't find the pricing guide anymore.

[Edward C. Patterson]

one of the "romance" genre e-publishers has a listing on their site of what price relates to what length of e-book. When I got some of their books, I found the pricing structure to be fair. I'll see if I can find them again, it's been a couple of years. If I can I'll post their pricing structure.

--
ok structure breakdown
     NOVELLETTE: 10,000-15,000   $1.99

     NOVELLA:    15,000-30,000 words $2.99
   
     NOVEL:    30,000-55,000 words  $3.99
   
     FULL NOVEL:    55,000-80,000 words  $4.99
   
     PLUS NOVEL:    80,000-100,000 words $5.99
   
     SUPER PLUS NOVEL:    100,000-150,000 words $6.99
   
     HUMONGOUS NOVEL:    150,000+ words $7.99
 

Wow. My structure is simpler. Humongous Novel - 185,000 words plus - $ 2.99
                                         Everything else - $ .99

Edward C. Patterson

[JimJohnson]

     NOVELLETTE: 10,000-15,000   $1.99
     NOVELLA:    15,000-30,000 words $2.99
     NOVEL:    30,000-55,000 words  $3.99
     FULL NOVEL:    55,000-80,000 words  $4.99

Pretty close to my own business plan in progress, except that I added a section for short stories up to 10,000 at .99 cents each and left the upper limit of 4.99 novels open beyond 80k words.

[mathewferguson]

The market wants what the markets wants - and if that's books mostly costing $2.99 max then that's the way it will go.

If you've got a really great book but put the price up high (say $9.99) then I'd expect to see sales and a lot of piracy.

Reduce the price and I'd expect sales to rise and piracy to decrease.

Somewhere in there is the optimal price point.

To worry about 99 cents books becoming the psychological fixed price point is futile. You can't control the market. There is really no way to form price-fixing cartels online because the creative destruction sweeping through dissolves their power. The big traditional publishers are currently trying without success to price-fix and it is worthless. Piracy is hammering them and will continue to do so until they bend to the demands of the market.

I know writers want to value their books at what they think they are worth but it is the market that decides the value of your work. Yes, that hurts, especially when the market decides your work is worth next to nothing but it is something we must accept.

In my work as a freelance writer I found myself competing with stay-at-home US mothers taking a break from teaching English to raise their kids. They have partners who work and so they undercut me significantly. On one project I quoted $2000 AUD. The US schoolteacher quoted $200. The client went with her, obviously.

I might want to argue about the value of my work but the market has decided that a website full of copy is worth $200. At that level I'm out of the market. No more writing websites. So I move on to other more lucrative pursuits and a whole lot of other writers take my work. This is a very good thing! At $200 we'll see many more clients entering the market to buy writing. While I'm not going to be playing in that space there will be many other writers happy to take that money.

In my first freelance jobs I charged $0 for my work. I was quite happy to gut any other writer out there on price so I could take the job and get Penguin on my resume. Later on as a paid freelancer I myself was gutted by new writers. Hooray for competition!

I think the best strategy is to experiment with price. Start at $2.99 for a full length novel. See how it goes. If you're selling well, leave it alone. To push ranking, reduce to 99 cents. Once you climb ranking boards and get those "Other customers bought" recommendations happening then perhaps go back to $2.99.

Or publish via Smashwords distributing to Amazon et al and put the book out at zero as a loss-leader.

Some maths:

To make $2000 in royalties per month at the $0.99 cent level requires 5772 sales.
If you increase to $2.99, you can stand to lose 4816 sales per month and still make $2000 in royalties. You'd now be selling 956 books per month.

For every dollar you increase after that there is a diminishing number of readers you can stand to lose and still hold earnings steady.

$0.99 sells 5772 books per month
$2.99 sells 956 books per month, can lose 4816 sales per month
$3.99 sells 716 books per month, can lose 239 sales per month.
$4.99 sells 573 books per month, can lose 144 sales per month.
$5.99 sells 477 books per month, can lose 96 sales per month.
$6.99 sells 409 books per month, can lose 68 sales per month.
$7.99 sells 358 books per month, can lose 51 sales per month.
$8.99 sells 318 books per month, can lose 40 sales per month.
$9.99 sells 286 books per month, can lose 32 sales per month.
$10.99 sells 260 books per month, can lose 26 sales per month.
$11.99 sells 238 books per month, can lose 22 sales per month.
$12.99 sells 220 books per month, can lose 18 sales per month.
$13.99 sells 204 books per month, can lose 16 sales per month.
$14.99 sells 191 books per month, can lose 14 sales per month.
$15.99 sells 179 books per month, can lose 12 sales per month.
$16.99 sells 168 books per month, can lose 11 sales per month.
$17.99 sells 159 books per month, can lose 9 sales per month.
$18.99 sells 150 books per month, can lose 8 sales per month.
$19.99 sells 143 books per month, can lose 8 sales per month.

You can see that if you're at the $2.99 price point and are thinking of moving up to $3.99 then you can't stand to lose more than 239 sales per month before it affects your earnings. If your price increase loses you more than this then it is better to return to the $2.99 level.

Of course, earnings aren't everything - you might put a book up at $0.99 to attract new readers and price the rest of your books at $2.99 to make the serious money.

[daringnovelist]

How do I find out what the word counts mean in real life use. I would like to know where the books I usually buy fit in, but wordcount is pretty useless to me ...

Both page count and locations vary WIDELY -- which is why it's good to get used to word count.  Generally speaking, a normal paperback will have something between 250-400 words per page.  (Usually in the 300-350 word range.)  The best way to guestimate a particular book is to pick a random page, and count the number of words in two or three FULL lines.  (You can do this on a couple of pages.)  Figure out the average number of words in a full line.  Then count the number of lines on an average page. 

In print publishing, you consider white space to be as important as the words themselves, so even pages with a lot of white space are supposed to be counted as if they are full of words. 

A standardized manuscript page is supposed to have 250 words (including white space).  That, btw, seems to be what Apple uses to estimate it's page count in the iBookstore.

Since word count is closer to standard than any other measure (except maybe character count), that's really a good one to use, and you start to get a feel for it after a while.

Camille

[Edward C. Patterson]

Actually, Apple uses the actual page count for the Kindle product pages if you have a paperback version available on Amazon, which generally is based on Trade sizes (330 words per page)

Edward C. Patterson

[daringnovelist]

Actually, Apple uses the actual page count for the Kindle product pages if you have a paperback version available on Amazon, which generally is based on Trade sizes (330 words per page)

They were definitely using 250 for my books. 

Camille

[Edward C. Patterson]

They were definitely using 250 for my books. 

Camille

Maybe they are using that as an estimate. But if they have a page count from another Amazon page, they use that (just as they use the YOUR SAVE price). My books are trade and POD through Amazon, so they don't estimate. However the Trade estimate (set by Sai King is 330, a good estimate for works in progress going to Trade size).  Sorry for taking off my assigned jester's hat for a moment and putting on my technical hat. Jester's hat back on. 

Edward C. Patterson

[NadiaLee]

It was Samhain, but they changed their website recently. Basically they were pricing novellas (10,000-30,000 words I think) at 3.49 and novels at 5.50 or so.  I checked their new website, but couldn't find the pricing guide anymore.

From Samhain's MySpace page http://www.myspace.com/samhainpublishing

Short Stories: $2.50 - 12,000 to 18,000 words
Novellas: $3.50 - 18,001 to 35,000 words
Category: $4.50 - 35,001 to 60,000 words
Novel: $5.50 - 60,001 to 100,000 words
Plus Novel: $6.50 - over 100,000 words

[Lanette Curington (MidnightWriter)]

From Samhain's MySpace page http://www.myspace.com/samhainpublishing

Short Stories: $2.50 - 12,000 to 18,000 words
Novellas: $3.50 - 18,001 to 35,000 words
Category: $4.50 - 35,001 to 60,000 words
Novel: $5.50 - 60,001 to 100,000 words
Plus Novel: $6.50 - over 100,000 words

They've changed their pricing structure over time, and this looks to be the latest. My novel with Samhain, Starkissed, is a tad over 80k, and it's priced at $5.50. It's discounted to $4.24 in the Kindle store. Reasonably priced, I say as a reader. Sales picked up nicely last month, and remain steady (as far as I can tell until I get my royalty statement).

Lanette

[rsullivan9597]

I recently posted the results of two of my pricing tests on my blog

For those that don't know I typically price books at $4.95 to $6.95.  But I tried some $0.99 promotion and a "free book" promotion

The Gist of the Matter:

• $0.99 test showed a loss of income of $9,665 a month
• free book test showed a loss of income of $7,072 per month

[M T McGuire]

@ Matthew - I had a similar experience with freelance writing but my bugbear was a larger outfit which had joined a government scheme that meant if people used them the government paid half. All my potential customers said "we want to use you but only if you can charge half the going rate". Most of the wanted design services as well - so it only covered the cost of my suppliers. The scheme was supposed to encourage small businesses but I had to achieve a turnover of over 100,000k to get on - which is difficult when someone is undercutting you by 50%. I gave up on it because charging so little for something that cost a lot of time and effort was making me bitter and I've better things to do with my time than get twisted!

More generally, yes, everyone, I agree that the market gets what the market wants and yeh, I'm unsure about the freebie route. I'm thinking about pulling the short stories or at least charging 99c a pop - do you know I think I'll probably get a very similar number of downloads. I don't know but I'm not sure people differentiate much between the lengths of the things they're buying, I'm pretty sure it's just what can I get for 75p? Right, I'll start there.

If I could turnout two good pulp novels a year, I'd be supremely unfazed about charging 99c for them. Trouble is, I write on 4 hours a week so I can't do two a year, one every two years is a major achievement for me. I would have However, I'm happy trying the Konrath experiment to see although to be honest, I think, with Amazon, there is evidence to suggest that it's critical mass of sales that gets you places, that once you break through a certain ceiling you will always be on the best seller list and people will always be buying your book.

Well, I'll try my experiment and see. The free pdf has already been downloaded more times in the last 24 hours than the excerpt it replaced has in two months. Don't get excited though, we're not talking vast numbers here. The big question, now is whether, in a month or so, any of those downloads turn into sales, elsewhere.

We'll see, if not, I'll try the 99c and live with being bitter and twisted about the difference between my perception of my worth and the market's.

Cheers

MTM

[nigel p bird]

It seems to be a sticky wicket.

If I were paying above $6 for an e-book, I'd be looking into getting a hard copy.  Keeping in mind that the kindles aren't cheap in the first place and that one can also download real classics for free, we need to be careful.  Throw in to the ring the fact that many haven't been through the traditional gate-keepers of agents and publishers and may well not have had the benefit of word of mouth or quality reviews, keeping things cheap doesn't seem unreasonable.  I paid £5 for Simon Logan's 'Katja And The Punk Band' and less for Emma Donoghue's The Room.  I also have a collection of work by Chris Holm for 71p and Allan Guthrie's novellas at 71p each - they're superb pieces and I couldn't justify charging more than that. 
My thought when I priced was that, until a wide range of people I don't know have offered me reviews, the 99 cents tag will make it more likely someone will take the chance.  Once they have it, I know that the quality will give them a lot of pleasure and they'll have the satisfaction of knowing they got themselves a real bargain.
If my novels get up to scratch and I feel they're worthy of publication, I hope my reputation has grown to the point where readers are looking our for it and that I can give them another bargain in the process. 
Eventually all these things will find balance, but for now I'm happy to be in the bargain basement. 

[Terrence OBrien]

Can we agree selling 100,000 copies is pretty successful?  That's 1 of every 3,000 Americans. Probably 1 of 6,000 English speakers.

I know the factor changes when we limit consideration to readers and the total number of Kindles, Nooks, Androids, iPhones, etc. We can also note not everyone reads. But it's still just a sliver of the market.

We don't have to satisfy everyone. We can't. No reason to try.