Dragonfly in Amber: Week of 3/23; Reading Chps 30-35, Discuss Chps 22-29 here

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

Posting early again this week.  I have another very busy Monday scheduled.

The reading this week is kind of short, but that's the way the chapters divided up.  We'll be reading Chapters 30-35.

Here's the discussion for Chapters 22-29. 

Part Four--Dragonfly in Amber

"Scandale"
Chapters 22-29

Ch. 22 "The Royal Stud"

1.  Should they trust Sandringham's offer of a pardon in exchange for Jamie abandoning Charles Stuart?  What decision do you think they should have made?

2. What did you think of the scene with Monsieur Forez's salve?

Ch. 23 "The Best-laid Plans of Mice and Men..."

1. What was the point of Monsieur Forez's graphic demonstration of a traitor’s death to Jamie?

Ch. 24 "The Bois de Bologne"

1. When Claire overheard the Princesse de Rohan and Marie d'Arbanville talking about the duel, what did you think really happened at the brothel.?

2.. What was your reaction to the duel and what happened to Claire?

Ch. 25 "Raymond the Heretic"

1. How do you explain Raymond the Heretic's action in the hospital?

Ch. 26 "Fontainebleau"

1. Was Claire right not to want to see Jamie when she was at Fountainbleau? 

2.  What did you think of the pastor’s revelations concerning Raymond and du Carrefours?

Ch. 27 "An Audience with His Majesty"

1. Why did Mother Hildegarde decide to help Claire attain an audience with the king?

2. Why was the witchcraft trial going on in the king's chamber?

3. Why did Master Raymond poison le Comte?

4.  Claire felt she didn’t have a choice when Raymond asked her to give the poisoned cup to St. Germain.  Did you think she had a choice?  Would you have made a different choice?  What about St. Germain’s threats?  What happened to the snake?  Do you care what happened to the snake?

Ch. 28 "The Coming of the Light"

1. How did you feel when learning what happened to Fergus in the brothel three months earlier?

2. What was your reaction to Claire and Jamie's reunion?

Ch. 29 "To Grasp the Nettle"

1. Do you feel by the end of this section that Jamie and Claire have resolved their differences to a point of mutual understanding?

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

Part Four--Dragonfly in Amber

"Scandale"
Chapters 22-29

Ch. 22 "The Royal Stud"

1.  Should they trust Sandringham's offer of a pardon in exchange for Jamie abandoning Charles Stuart?  What decision do you think they should have made?

My first instinct is to say no, they shouldn’t trust him.  Sandringham may just be trying to find out whether or not Jamie is a Jacobite.  Then I thought that it wouldn’t really cost Sandringham anything if they took him up on it. 

Jamie and Claire made the only decision they could make.  They have to see this through.  If they can’t stop Charles, there would be nothing for them in Scotland. 

2. What did you think of the scene with Monsieur Forez's salve?

I think they were a bit too squeamish.  Squeamish is okay, but they really overreacted.

Ch. 23 "The Best-laid Plans of Mice and Men..."

1. What was the point of Monsieur Forez's graphic demonstration of a traitor’s death to Jamie?

Seems like everyone is trying to keep Jamie away from Charles Stuart. 

Ch. 24 "The Bois de Bologne"

1. When Claire overheard the Princesse de Rohan and Marie d'Arbanville talking about the duel, what did you think really happened at the brothel?

I certainly didn’t think Jamie challenged anyone to a duel over one of the girls.  Mention was made of an Englishman, and there’s only one Englishman Jamie would challenge.

2. What was your reaction to the duel and what happened to Claire?

It was bound to happen.  Jamie couldn’t avoid Randall forever, and sooner or later, Randall would have goaded Jamie into challenging him. 

Claire was already experiencing difficulties with the pregnancy.  The shock of the duel precipitated  premature labor, but I’m not sure Claire would have carried the baby full term anyway. 

Ch. 25 "Raymond the Heretic"

1. How do you explain Raymond the Heretic's action in the hospital?

It was reminiscent of Claire’s exorcism of Jamie.  Just as Claire had to make Jamie face what happened and fight it, Raymond had to make Claire aware of what was happening to her body and draw out the fever and the pain. 

Ch. 26 "Fontainebleau"

1. Was Claire right not to want to see Jamie when she was at Fountainbleau? 

Claire was devastated.  It would have been best if she could have shared the loss of Faith with Jamie, but she blamed him for the miscarriage.  I think she also blamed Jamie for the necessity of her sleeping with Louis. 

2.  What did you think of the pastor’s revelations concerning Raymond and du Carrefours?

I think Raymond is a seeker.  He seeks knowledge and understanding wherever they are to be found.

Ch. 27 "An Audience with His Majesty"

1. Why did Mother Hildegarde decide to help Claire attain an audience with the king?

I think Mother Hidegarde didn’t want Claire to go in unprepared and alone. 

2. Why was the witchcraft trial going on in the king's chamber?

Louis knew when Claire would be coming to see him.  He needed the services of La Dame Blanche to render a decision that he didn’t want to render himself.

3. Why did Master Raymond poison le Comte?

To prove that he and Claire weren’t witches and to save Claire from St. Germain. 

4.  Claire felt she didn’t have a choice when Raymond asked her to give the poisoned cup to St. Germain.  Did you think she had a choice?  Would you have made a different choice?  What about St. Germain’s threats?  What happened to the snake?  Do you care what happened to the snake?

No, Claire didn’t have a choice.  St. Germain had already threatened her, and if he was allowed to leave that room alive, he would have made good on his threats.  I would have made the same choice.  With St. Germain dead, no one would know that Claire was even in the room. 

No, I don’t care what happened to the snake.  He curled up at Louis’ feet.  He’s Louis’ problem. 

Ch. 28 "The Coming of the Light"

1. How did you feel when learning what happened to Fergus in the brothel three months earlier?

That little guy had such a rough life and Randall is a complete pervert. 

2. What was your reaction to Claire and Jamie's reunion?

Very painful.  Jamie was trying very hard to reach Claire, but she knew if she allowed that, she would have to feel all the pain she had been suppressing for so many weeks. 

Ch. 29 "To Grasp the Nettle"

1. Do you feel by the end of this section that Jamie and Claire have resolved their differences to a point of mutual understanding?

Yes.  Jamie had to force Claire to tell him the truth about Louis.  If he hadn’t, the lie would have destroyed his trust.  As painful as the truth was, they both had to face it.  I thinking finding the bodies of the lovers in the cave helped draw them closer together.  They are playing a dangerous game and finding these two whose lives were so tragically cut short, helped Jamie and Claire to resolve their conflicts. 

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

Part Four--Dragonfly in Amber

"Scandale"
Chapters 22-29

Ch. 22 "The Royal Stud"

1.  Should they trust Sandringham's offer of a pardon in exchange for Jamie abandoning Charles Stuart?  What decision do you think they should have made?
Absolutely not, Sandringham has a motive, but it is not to help Jamie. When Frank is talking about him, no one was sure where his loyalties were. He is probably just trying to get Jamie and Claire out of the way.

2. What did you think of the scene with Monsieur Forez's salve?
I think I would have reacted the same way. Just the thought of human salve makes my skin crawl.

Ch. 23 "The Best-laid Plans of Mice and Men..."

1. What was the point of Monsieur Forez's graphic demonstration of a traitor’s death to Jamie?
He is trying to warn Jamie. Not sure what he knows or suspects, but I don’t think he us just trying to scare them off, I think he is making sure Jamie understands what is a stake.

Ch. 24 "The Bois de Bologne"

1. When Claire overheard the Princesse de Rohan and Marie d'Arbanville talking about the duel, what did you think really happened at the brothel.?
Jamie had found Randall and lost control.

2.. What was your reaction to the duel and what happened to Claire?
The duel was inevitable. Jamie had already told Claire that what was between him and Randall would only end when one of them died. I had to stop reading a couple of times. Claire was already having problems, and the stress of the duel was just too much.

Ch. 25 "Raymond the Heretic"

1. How do you explain Raymond the Heretic's action in the hospital?
He was doing for Claire what she had done for Jamie in France. I really can’t explain it beyond that. By making her focus on Jamie, it gave her an anchor to life.

Ch. 26 "Fontainebleau"

1. Was Claire right not to want to see Jamie when she was at Fountainbleau?
As long as she didn’t have to face Jamie, she could keep her anger at him alive and avoid facing her grief over Faith. She blamed Jamie for killing Randall, Frank and Faith. But she knew if she talked to him, she would have to face all the grief and loss she was trying to block. Right or not is not important, to her it was a matter of self-preservation.

2.  What did you think of the pastor’s revelations concerning Raymond and du Carrefours?
It explained quite a bit about Raymond. I don’t think he practiced black magic, but he understood it.

Ch. 27 "An Audience with His Majesty"

1. Why did Mother Hildegarde decide to help Claire attain an audience with the king?
Claire was determined to get Jamie out of prison, and Mother knew it was in order to try to stop Charles, not because she wanted to sleep with Louis.

2. Why was the witchcraft trial going on in the king's chamber?
Louis apparently had some reason to mistrust le Comte. Or maybe it was to test Claire. The stories about her being Dame Blanche were all over Paris.

3. Why did Master Raymond poison le Comte?
Le Comte was a dangerous man, and it was known he hated Claire. I think Raymond did it to save Claire and Jamie.

4.  Claire felt she didn’t have a choice when Raymond asked her to give the poisoned cup to St. Germain.  Did you think she had a choice?  Would you have made a different choice?  What about St. Germain’s threats?  What happened to the snake?  Do you care what happened to the snake?
It was a choice of kill or be killed. Had she not given to poison to le Comte, she probably would not have left the palace alive.  St. Germain was not making idle threats. I have no idea about the snake.

Ch. 28 "The Coming of the Light"

1. How did you feel when learning what happened to Fergus in the brothel three months earlier?
The duel suddenly made sense. Jamie was not fighting Randall just out of hate or revenge for himself, but because of what he had done to Fergus. Jamie had a very strong sense of duty, and part of that duty was taking care of the people he was responsible for. He was partly avenging Fergus.

2. What was your reaction to Claire and Jamie's reunion?
They both were hurting. Jamie felt responsible for what happened to Claire and for killing Faith. He had to find out if Claire blamed him. He also had to know for sure what happened with Louis. He knew the custom. It was such an intense meeting, each of them blaming themselves and the other.

Ch. 29 "To Grasp the Nettle"

1. Do you feel by the end of this section that Jamie and Claire have resolved their differences to a point of mutual understanding?
Everything is not resolved, but they are making a beginning. It will take time for Jamie to get over Claire lying to him about what happened with Louis. And it will take Claire time to forgive Jamie for killing Frank. I think as long as the issue with Randall is not completely resolved, Frank will always be an issue, even if neither of them admit it.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

I was reading your responses, Teresa, and for some reason, I got all choked up.  Of course, these books do make me pretty emotional, but some of your answers made it more real. 

That's okay.  It never hurts to have a good cry. 

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

I completely understand. I got choked up writing the answers. This was such an emotionally intense section. Even though I had read it before, I still cried over many parts of it.

[zeferjen]

Hi Everyone -

Just wanted to introduce myself to the club. Sorry to be a latecomer, but I just started reading the Outlander series a few weeks ago, based on some recommendations on this board. These books are so amazing, that I have been powering through them and reading your bookclub comments along with it. I am just starting to read Chps 22-29, so hopefully I am finally caught up. I will post back my answers to your questions in the next day or so. I hope it's ok to join at this late time, but I'll just in feet first.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

Hi Everyone -

Just wanted to introduce myself to the club. Sorry to be a latecomer, but I just started reading the Outlander series a few weeks ago, based on some recommendations on this board. These books are so amazing, that I have been powering through them and reading your bookclub comments along with it. I am just starting to read Chps 22-29, so hopefully I am finally caught up. I will post back my answers to your questions in the next day or so. I hope it's ok to join at this late time, but I'll just in feet first.

We're very happy to have you join us.  Yeah, these books tend to have that effect.  Once you start, it's hard to stop.  I've been reading them since the first one was published in 1991.  They still get to me.  There are others here who are long time fans, and newbies like yourself.  Enjoy the ride.  We'll look forward to your responses.

[bosslady402]

Hopefully I will get to the questions by tomorrow - but just wanted to point out the appearance of 'The Brooch';

location 7989;

"He wore his plaid today pinned with a brooch at the shoulder - a beautiful thing his sister had sent him from Scotland, made in the shape of two running stags, bodies bent so that they joined in a circle, heads and tails touching."

And the brooch Jamie's ghost was wearing;

"The most beautiful running-stag brooch on his plaid"

And the brooch that MacRannoch was wearing when Claire met him;

"a silver gilt brooch as large as the palm of my hand. It was made in the shape of two leaping stags, backs arched and heads meeting to form a circle. The locking pin was a short, tapered fan, the head of it shaped like the tail of a fleeing deer"

So... What's the connection between all these brooches? I think it is safe to say that the brooch Jenny sent to Jamie is the same the ghost was wearing, but what's it got to do with MacRannochs brooch? Could they be the same? Or just made by the same person? or just a coincidence?

Also, this answers the question we were debating before, about whether Jenny knew that Jamie was safe in France. Doesn't say when she sent him the brooch, but considering the legth of time it takes to get messages/packages back and forth, she's had to have known for a while.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

Hopefully I will get to the questions by tomorrow - but just wanted to point out the appearance of 'The Brooch';

location 7989;

"He wore his plaid today pinned with a brooch at the shoulder - a beautiful thing his sister had sent him from Scotland, made in the shape of two running stags, bodies bent so that they joined in a circle, heads and tails touching."

This is a very clear description, which pretty much matches that worn by MacRannoch.  My question is why didn't Claire notice the similarity.  Of course, she was under considerable strain at the time she saw MacRannoch's brooch.

And the brooch Jamie's ghost was wearing;

"The most beautiful running-stag brooch on his plaid"

Here is a picture of the running stag brooch issued by theauthorsattic.com.  They do all the Outlander jewelry; approved by DG.  I got Claire's ring, which is gorgeous.

And the brooch that MacRannoch was wearing when Claire met him;

"a silver gilt brooch as large as the palm of my hand. It was made in the shape of two leaping stags, backs arched and heads meeting to form a circle. The locking pin was a short, tapered fan, the head of it shaped like the tail of a fleeing deer"

So... What's the connection between all these brooches? I think it is safe to say that the brooch Jenny sent to Jamie is the same the ghost was wearing, but what's it got to do with MacRannochs brooch? Could they be the same? Or just made by the same person? or just a coincidence?

I think MacRannoch gave Ellen a brooch like his own.  He was courting her, after all.  I think that's the brooch Jenny sent to Jamie.  A "running stag" is running straight ahead, and wouldn't have his back arched. 

DG says she's going to explain all about the ghost in the last book.  She'd better keep her promise.  We only have another four years to wait.   

Also, this answers the question we were debating before, about whether Jenny knew that Jamie was safe in France. Doesn't say when she sent him the brooch, but considering the length of time it takes to get messages/packages back and forth, she's had to have known for a while.

At least one question is definitely answered. 

[imallbs]

I've been behind on the reading but have been reading the discussion as I finished each part of the book.  And this week, finally, I'm caught up on the reading and have time to post.  so here are my humble? opionions


Ch. 22 "The Royal Stud"
1.  Should they trust Sandringham's offer of a pardon in exchange for Jamie abandoning Charles Stuart?  What decision do you think they should have made?
Sandringham is an unknown and Jamie and Claire cannot afford to trust an unknown.  Also, with Claire’s foreknowledge, they probably are leaning to Sandringham being in league with Randall.


2. What did you think of the scene with Monsieur Forez's salve?

I think they were a bit too squeamish.  Squeamish is okay, but they really overreacted.

A bit too squeamish?  I don’t know about that.  I think I would immediately wash boiled dead people off my skin too.  Ok, I’m not a vegetarian but I’m not a cannibal either

Claire and Jamie are becoming an old married couple; they are so much more relaxed with each other.  For some reason, this line has stayed with me and still makes me laugh
When talking about agreeing to let Randall live for a year "Close your mouth, Sassenach flies will get in" followed by the matter of fact observation that there were indeed many flies about.  Adding Fergus to the mix made them seem like a family in this scene.

Ch. 23 "The Best-laid Plans of Mice and Men..."

1. What was the point of Monsieur Forez's graphic demonstration of a traitor’s death to Jamie?

A warning – “people are aware of what you’re doing you need to watch out” but said in a round about way.  Or he could just be a sick old B who gets off on killing and torturing people

Ch. 24 "The Bois de Bologne"

1. When Claire overheard the Princesse de Rohan and Marie d'Arbanville talking about the duel, what did you think really happened at the brothel.?
I had no doubt it was Randall who was challenged.  Jamie would not have risked their mission for anyone else.  I figured Black Jack was being his old nasty self and because it was Black Jack Jamie couldn’t let anything go.  Later when I read about Fergus, I thought that it could have been anybody mistreating the boy and Jamie would have jumped to his defense.

2.. What was your reaction to the duel and what happened to Claire?
I get why Claire wanted to stop the duel.  After reading the part about Fergus, I understand Jamie’s fury.  Another one of those no one wins situations that Claire and Jamie keep finding themselves in.  It was hard to read because control on either’s part may have resulted in a different outcome. 

Ch. 25 "Raymond the Heretic"

1. How do you explain Raymond the Heretic's action in the hospital?
Ok, this was just weirdness to me.  Gertie, Tlshaw your answers helped me understand what was going on.

Ch. 26 "Fontainebleau"

1. Was Claire right not to want to see Jamie when she was at Fountainbleau? 
Initially, Claire could not have physically withstood the grieving process.  Not seeing Jamie gave her time to let her body heal.  After that, she needed to see him so they could heal together.  Add her experience with Louis to the mix and she needed to face it little by little.  Unfortunately, like most people in a depression, Claire could not understand what she needed.  At least Jamie was able to face her and force her to take the 1st steps back.


2.  What did you think of the pastor’s revelations concerning Raymond and du Carrefours? 
It helped build the trust she would need when Raymond gave her the poison.  Until then she was more conflicted about him.

Ch. 27 "An Audience with His Majesty"

1. Why did Mother Hildegarde decide to help Claire attain an audience with the king? 
She knew Claire was going to do something to get Jamie out and at least this way the consequences would not include her ending up in the Bastille as well.

2. Why was the witchcraft trial going on in the king's chamber?

Louis knew when Claire would be coming to see him.  He needed the services of La Dame Blanche to render a decision that he didn’t want to render himself.

Louis apparently had some reason to mistrust le Comte. Or maybe it was to test Claire. The stories about her being Dame Blanche were all over Paris.

Both are good points.  Louis didn't have to make a difficult decision.  But Jamie was become quite influential - he needed to know more about him and Claire.


3. Why did Master Raymond poison le Comte?
It was kill or be killed

4.  Claire felt she didn’t have a choice when Raymond asked her to give the poisoned cup to St. Germain.  Did you think she had a choice?  Would you have made a different choice?  What about St. Germain’s threats?  What happened to the snake?  Do you care what happened to the snake?
I think there was a choice, between bad and worse than bad.  It was like killing the young soldier, something that had to be done.  It wasn’t done easily but it was necessary.  I would have made the same choice (not being real fond of having pieces of my body hacked off and all) because St Germain would have made good on his threats

I cared what happened to the snake.  I was reading trying to find out what happened but it wasn’t mentioned again.  I hope it slithered out of the room – it’s not like it chose to be there.

Ch. 28 "The Coming of the Light"

1. How did you feel when learning what happened to Fergus in the brothel three months earlier?
One of the hardest things I have read in these two books – right up there with Jamie being flogged.  I could understand Jamie’s mindset after reading this.  It isn’t said but I think Jamie thinks of Fergus as a son rather than an employee.

2. What was your reaction to Claire and Jamie's reunion?

By way of explanation, I work at a mental health center and deal with devastating situations pretty regularly.  I found myself going into the mode of professional detachment without even thinking about it.  I had to read this several times to allow myself to feel it, and when I did – wow.  What these two people went through was so incredibly hard.  Dealing with Jamie’s history with Randall, Claire’s history with Randall, Claire’s feelings for Frank, their feelings for Fergus, the knowledge of what happened to Fergus, loss of the baby, guilt on both their parts for losing the baby, what happened with Louis, the knowledge of what will happen if Charles launches his bid for the throne and more.  To sort through all of that and still at the end of this, have hope for their future together – it was agonizing and amazing.  This was possibly the most powerful scene I have read so far, mainly because at the end they could see a future.


Ch. 29 "To Grasp the Nettle"

1. Do you feel by the end of this section that Jamie and Claire have resolved their differences to a point of mutual understanding?

Everything is not resolved, but they are making a beginning. It will take time for Jamie to get over Claire lying to him about what happened with Louis. And it will take Claire time to forgive Jamie for killing Frank. I think as long as the issue with Randall is not completely resolved, Frank will always be an issue, even if neither of them admit it

Yes.  Jamie had to force Claire to tell him the truth about Louis.  If he hadn’t, the lie would have destroyed his trust.  As painful as the truth was, they both had to face it.  I thinking finding the bodies of the lovers in the cave helped draw them closer together.  They are playing a dangerous game and finding these two whose lives were so tragically cut short, helped Jamie and Claire to resolve their conflicts. 

What you said.  It hasn’t been resolved but they are getting there and have recommitted to each other.

[zeferjen]

Ch. 22 "The Royal Stud"

1.  Should they trust Sandringham's offer of a pardon in exchange for Jamie abandoning Charles Stuart?  What decision do you think they should have made?
I think they could have trusted Sandringham to keep his word and pardon Jamie, but I don't think Jamie, being as stubborn as he is, would have backed down from his purpose in order to save his own hide.

2. What did you think of the scene with Monsieur Forez's salve?
OMG, how disgusting. I knew that guy was creepy.

Ch. 23 "The Best-laid Plans of Mice and Men..."

1. What was the point of Monsieur Forez's graphic demonstration of a traitor’s death to Jamie?
I think it is just as they understood it - a warning.

Ch. 24 "The Bois de Bologne"

1. When Claire overheard the Princesse de Rohan and Marie d'Arbanville talking about the duel, what did you think really happened at the brothel.?
I thought that he had seen Jack hurting one of the prostitutes.

2.. What was your reaction to the duel and what happened to Claire?
I thought it was unbelievably sad, what happened to Claire. I have to admit, I did judge her a bit harshly for choosing to protect Frank over her own child.

Ch. 25 "Raymond the Heretic"

1. How do you explain Raymond the Heretic's action in the hospital?
I cannot explain it. All I can think is he does possess some real magic.

Ch. 26 "Fontainebleau"

1. Was Claire right not to want to see Jamie when she was at Fountainbleau?
She blames Jamie but she also did not want to face reality. I can't really say how I would react if I lost a child.

2.  What did you think of the pastor’s revelations concerning Raymond and du Carrefours?
Honestly, I did not really understand completely what du Carrefours was accused of. We know that witch trials are not really based on real evidence so I don't know what to think of Raymond.

Ch. 27 "An Audience with His Majesty"

1. Why did Mother Hildegarde decide to help Claire attain an audience with the king?
She knows that Claire and Jamie have a higher purpose, based on the help she gave them before. She assumes that Claire wouldn't take this drastic step unless there was good reason.

2. Why was the witchcraft trial going on in the king's chamber?
I don't think that he wants the people to know that he would excuse some witchcraft but not others.

3. Why did Master Raymond poison le Comte?
To take away suspicion from himself and Claire?

4.  Claire felt she didn’t have a choice when Raymond asked her to give the poisoned cup to St. Germain.  Did you think she had a choice?  Would you have made a different choice?  What about St. Germain’s threats?  What happened to the snake?  Do you care what happened to the snake?
Lol. I don't care what happened to the snake? Should I? I think Claire made the only choice she could, just like St. Germain did when he drank it.

Ch. 28 "The Coming of the Light"

1. How did you feel when learning what happened to Fergus in the brothel three months earlier?
Poor Fergus. The saddest thing is that he had been abused in the past so he didn't really think much of what happened. He felt more guilty at getting Jamie into trouble.

2. What was your reaction to Claire and Jamie's reunion?
Relief

Ch. 29 "To Grasp the Nettle"

1. Do you feel by the end of this section that Jamie and Claire have resolved their differences to a point of mutual understanding?
Yes. They both have done things for the other that they regret. They are ready to make a fresh start.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

I've been behind on the reading but have been reading the discussion as I finished each part of the book.  And this week, finally, I'm caught up on the reading and have time to post.  so here are my humble? opionions

Glad you're back.  I always enjoy your comments.

4.  Claire felt she didn’t have a choice when Raymond asked her to give the poisoned cup to St. Germain.  Did you think she had a choice?  Would you have made a different choice?  What about St. Germain’s threats?  What happened to the snake?  Do you care what happened to the snake?
I think there was a choice, between bad and worse than bad.  It was like killing the young soldier, something that had to be done.  It wasn’t done easily but it was necessary.  I would have made the same choice (not being real fond of having pieces of my body hacked off and all) because St Germain would have made good on his threats

I cared what happened to the snake.  I was reading trying to find out what happened but it wasn’t mentioned again.  I hope it slithered out of the room – it’s not like it chose to be there.

The snake curled around Louis feet.  After that, we didn't see any more because there was pandemonium in that room. 

I'm trying to picture a scene in my mind for Raymond.  He's just murdered St. Germain, Claire is off for a couple of strokes with Louis, and he's alone in the room with all those crazed people.  Did he slip out of the room during the chaos?  Did they just let him go?  Did he clear his throat loudly and say, "May I be excused?" and the council just waved him off? 

Ch. 28 "The Coming of the Light"

1. How did you feel when learning what happened to Fergus in the brothel three months earlier?
One of the hardest things I have read in these two books – right up there with Jamie being flogged.  I could understand Jamie’s mindset after reading this.  It isn’t said but I think Jamie thinks of Fergus as a son rather than an employee.

What got to me was Fergus' acceptance of the situation and the fact he's done it before.  His almost blase offer to use his mouth instead was chilling. 

2. What was your reaction to Claire and Jamie's reunion?

By way of explanation, I work at a mental health center and deal with devastating situations pretty regularly.  I found myself going into the mode of professional detachment without even thinking about it.  I had to read this several times to allow myself to feel it, and when I did – wow.  What these two people went through was so incredibly hard.  Dealing with Jamie’s history with Randall, Claire’s history with Randall, Claire’s feelings for Frank, their feelings for Fergus, the knowledge of what happened to Fergus, loss of the baby, guilt on both their parts for losing the baby, what happened with Louis, the knowledge of what will happen if Charles launches his bid for the throne and more.  To sort through all of that and still at the end of this, have hope for their future together – it was agonizing and amazing.  This was possibly the most powerful scene I have read so far, mainly because at the end they could see a future.

Okay, choking up again. 

[zeferjen]

No one has mentioned this yet, so I'll throw it out there. Since Frank's ring has not disappeared and we know that he survives because Claire goes back to him, what happened?

My first theory was that Marie was never pregnant with Jack's baby, but rather somehow got pregnant from the rape and that Jack married her b/c he couldn't have children of his own because of what Jamie did to him. But that doesn't make sense because Frank looks so much like Randall. So is Alex the father of Marie's baby? Did Jack somehow heal enough to be able to procreate? Any ideas?

[zeferjen]

Glad you're back.  I always enjoy your comments.


The snake curled around Louis feet.  After that, we didn't see any more because there was pandemonium in that room. 

I'm trying to picture a scene in my mind for Raymond.  He's just murdered St. Germain, Claire is off for a couple of strokes with Louis, and he's alone in the room with all those crazed people.  Did he slip out of the room during the chaos?  Did they just let him go?  Did he clear his throat loudly and say, "May I be excused?" and the council just waved him off? 

Hmmm. Maybe Raymond took the snake with him when he left! We know he has a thing for taxidermy.

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

No one has mentioned this yet, so I'll throw it out there. Since Frank's ring has not disappeared and we know that he survives because Claire goes back to him, what happened?

My first theory was that Marie was never pregnant with Jack's baby, but rather somehow got pregnant from the rape and that Jack married her b/c he couldn't have children of his own because of what Jamie did to him. But that doesn't make sense because Frank looks so much like Randall. So is Alex the father of Marie's baby? Did Jack somehow heal enough to be able to procreate? Any ideas?

All I will say is keep reading

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

No one has mentioned this yet, so I'll throw it out there. Since Frank's ring has not disappeared and we know that he survives because Claire goes back to him, what happened?

My first theory was that Marie was never pregnant with Jack's baby, but rather somehow got pregnant from the rape and that Jack married her b/c he couldn't have children of his own because of what Jamie did to him. But that doesn't make sense because Frank looks so much like Randall. So is Alex the father of Marie's baby? Did Jack somehow heal enough to be able to procreate? Any ideas?

Those of us who have read the series (multiple times) know, but we're not telling.  I'll just ditto Teresa ... keep reading. 

Hmmm. Maybe Raymond took the snake with him when he left! We know he has a thing for taxidermy.

Good thought. 

[Toby]

***Yes, I got that brooch reference since it was mentioned here before reading it. That was cool to find a piece of the puzzle, even if we all knew it had to be Jamie's ghost.  Thanks for showing the pics.
***In essence, Claire only slept with Louis in order to free Jamie, so I was mad at Jamie for not having a bit more compassion for what Claire went through for him. I really thought that Claire was going to get out of that 1. I was shocked to read that it happened to her, especially after every darn thing that happened to her.
***Forez- I was ready to upchuck. Ick!!!! I'd be throwing myself in the lake to wash off that grease. Ick, Ick, Ick!!!!!! Toby shudders.
***Forez - I was wondering if Diana, the author, did research on this. Is this fact or just made up? Getting more quesy sp?
***Raymond - I've read of people that heals by laying on of hands, or altering of energy. It just seems like he is interested in all forms of healing.
***The snake - It was funny reading that Claire knew it wasn't poisonous, probably a garden snake. She was so calm about it. Didn't really care about it.
***That scene with the couple in the cave was so sad, but was such a powerful reminder to Claire & Jamie of their love for each other.
***Somehow, I was wondering why Claire didn't give more attention to Fegus. It seemed like Fergus was just there & Jamie giving most of his affection to him. Maybe, I'm reading more into it. This was even before she lost Faith. Maybe she just thinks of him as Jamie's responsibility.
***I know you won't say, but I am curious as to "who's the daddy". Frank's ancestor. I'd like to think it was Alex, Black Jack's brother. Anyway, I don't blame Jamie at all for wanting to take revenge on Black Jack & such a great place to strike him. 

[imallbs]

No one has mentioned this yet, so I'll throw it out there. Since Frank's ring has not disappeared and we know that he survives because Claire goes back to him, what happened?

My first theory was that Marie was never pregnant with Jack's baby, but rather somehow got pregnant from the rape and that Jack married her b/c he couldn't have children of his own because of what Jamie did to him. But that doesn't make sense because Frank looks so much like Randall. So is Alex the father of Marie's baby? Did Jack somehow heal enough to be able to procreate? Any ideas?

I have thought that Alex was the baby's father since they introduced him.  But that might be wishful thinking because I don't like Jack.

Hmmm. Maybe Raymond took the snake with him when he left! We know he has a thing for taxidermy.

No, no taxiderming the snake – otherwise known as Croque. 
Through diligent research I was able to discover what happened.  Croque didn't like Louie and couldn't wait to get away from him.  He slithered out of the room into Louis’ gardens where he lived happily ever after.

[imallbs]

***In essence, Claire only slept with Louis in order to free Jamie, so I was mad at Jamie for not having a bit more compassion for what Claire went through for him. I really thought that Claire was going to get out of that 1. I was shocked to read that it happened to her, especially after every darn thing that happened to her.

That's going to have to go down as one of the big surprises of this book for me as well.  I did not see it coming.  I put it up there with finding out that Gillies was a time traveler.  Does anyone else think that Roger is descended from Gillies and Duncan's kid.  He said his name was MacKenzie and Dougal said that he placed the baby with someone in the clan.  Just saying....

***That scene with the couple in the cave was so sad, but was such a powerful reminder to Claire & Jamie of their love for each other.

It was an all too real reminder that everything could be over in an instant.  It was such a catalyst in the healing process.

***Somehow, I was wondering why Claire didn't give more attention to Fegus. It seemed like Fergus was just there & Jamie giving most of his affection to him. Maybe, I'm reading more into it. This was even before she lost Faith. Maybe she just thinks of him as Jamie's responsibility.

I was noticing this too.  Claire had approached Frank about adopting and here she has this boy that she could treat like a son and she doesn't.  Yet Frank obviously got past his not wanting to adopt because he was devoted to Bree.  Maybe he really did mean that he wanted a child with Claire because it would be a part of her? or not

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

***Somehow, I was wondering why Claire didn't give more attention to Fegus. It seemed like Fergus was just there & Jamie giving most of his affection to him. Maybe, I'm reading more into it. This was even before she lost Faith. Maybe she just thinks of him as Jamie's responsibility.

I was noticing this too.  Claire had approached Frank about adopting and here she has this boy that she could treat like a son and she doesn't.  Yet Frank obviously got past his not wanting to adopt because he was devoted to Bree.  Maybe he really did mean that he wanted a child with Claire because it would be a part of her? or not

I see your point. However, here is my thinking on it. When Claire broached the subject with Frank, she thought they could not have children. With Jamie, she knew she could, so there was no sense of not having options.

I saw Jamie's attitude to Fergus as a laird with his tenant. Since Fergus worked for Jamie, he was under Jamie's protection, and when Jamie took him on, he had told him that he would take care of Fergus for life, even if he was caught. Also, can you imagine Jamie allowing his son to take such chances?

[zeferjen]

Does anyone else think that Roger is descended from Gillies and Duncan's kid.  He said his name was MacKenzie and Dougal said that he placed the baby with someone in the clan. 

I do think Roger is descended from someone in the story. Why else would Claire mention that she had researched his genealogy? It's weird to think that it is Gellie, though, because isn't she originally from the 1960's? So she would have been able to know Roger before she went back in time to conceive him. Argh! Time travel paradox hurts my head!

I saw Jamie's attitude to Fergus as a laird with his tenant. Since Fergus worked for Jamie, he was under Jamie's protection, and when Jamie took him on, he had told him that he would take care of Fergus for life, even if he was caught. Also, can you imagine Jamie allowing his son to take such chances?

I agree with this. It seems like Jamie treats Fergus the same way Jamie's father treated Ian.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

***Forez - I was wondering if Diana, the author, did research on this. Is this fact or just made up? Getting more quesy sp?

No, it's not made up.  It's called drawing and quartering and was the execution reserved for treason. 

***Somehow, I was wondering why Claire didn't give more attention to Fegus. It seemed like Fergus was just there & Jamie giving most of his affection to him. Maybe, I'm reading more into it. This was even before she lost Faith. Maybe she just thinks of him as Jamie's responsibility.

Or Jamie's employee. 

No, no taxiderming the snake – otherwise known as Croque. 
Through diligent research I was able to discover what happened.  Croque didn't like Louie and couldn't wait to get away from him.  He slithered out of the room into Louis’ gardens where he lived happily ever after.

 

I see your point. However, here is my thinking on it. When Claire broached the subject with Frank, she thought they could not have children. With Jamie, she knew she could, so there was no sense of not having options.

I agree.  And I'm sure Claire had a sweet little baby in mind, not a half-grown French street rat. 

I saw Jamie's attitude to Fergus as a laird with his tenant. Since Fergus worked for Jamie, he was under Jamie's protection, and when Jamie took him on, he had told him that he would take care of Fergus for life, even if he was caught. Also, can you imagine Jamie allowing his son to take such chances?

Good point. 

I do think Roger is descended from someone in the story. Why else would Claire mention that she had researched his genealogy? It's weird to think that it is Gellie, though, because isn't she originally from the 1960's? So she would have been able to know Roger before she went back in time to conceive him. Argh! Time travel paradox hurts my head!
I agree with this. It seems like Jamie treats Fergus the same way Jamie's father treated Ian.

Geillie wouldn't have had any idea if she had any descendants before she went back in time, because she wasn't there yet to have any descendants.  Once she was back there, she couldn't research it. 

[Toby]

***Okay, that makes sense. Thinking of Fergus as a tenant. Also, times were different then.
***I think that Frank wanted his biological child, not just Claire's biological child. He wanted the family tree to keep growing. Claire comes back. Surprise! She's pregnant with another man's baby. What does he do. He tells Claire never to tell anyone that, including Bree. He loves Claire, so he gets Claire back. Claire wants a daddy for Bree, but now Frank is no longer the love of her life. Jamie will always be. It's more a marriage of companionship, friendship & yes, love.....I think. Well, at least Claire cares for Frank.

[Toby]

***Thanks Gertie. It sure is evil & barbaric that drawing & quartering. Creepy.
***Yes, that's right. I saw the snake safe & sound in the garden. 
***As I said before in Outlander, alot of stuff happened.

[k_reader]

Was Claire right not to want to see Jamie when she was at Fountainbleau?
I think so.....she was in so much pain and so hurt and so mad at Jamie.  I don't blame her....then she found out what happened to Fergus and she her feelings finally started to thaw.  I was shocked and heartbroken to read about Fergus's horrible experiences at the brothel.  I was in tears.  To think that happened to him (and happens even today) makes me sick.  The poor child was upset because he thought he hurt is "Lord". 

The reunion at Fountainbleau was so well done!  The author captured all the feelings of regret, sadness, guilt, love.... amazing.  I was a little upset at Jamie for not commiserating with Claire instead of blaming her for what happened with Louis (I know, he was most upset because she lied about it).  She was trying to spare him the pain of the knowledge of what she had to do.