B&N and incorrect rankings

[EllenFisher]

I alluded to this in another thread, but I thought I'd go ahead and post about it in its own thread.

My bestseller on B&N (an erotic romance written under my other name) sold 3300 copies last month.  This month it appeared to be gearing up for bigger and better things, selling 365 copies in the first two days of April.  It was #30 on the PubIt bestseller list, but when I looked at it on April 2, I was surprised to note that despite its sales, its overall Nookstore rankings had dropped from the high 100s to the 1100s.  I also noticed that some other erotic romances (most notably Tina Folsom's Lawful Escort, which was the #1 PubIt book) were ranked in the 1100s.  And yet they were still on the bestseller list, so I decided that either there were a lot more items being released on Nook, or that it must be a glitch of some kind.

That evening, however, my book dropped off the top 100 PubIt books (on a day it sold 200 copies).  I noticed that most other erotica books had dropped out of the top 50 as well, including Lawful Escort.  Strangely, there was still one erotic Tina Folsom book on the list (her Venice Vampyr is currently #2 in the PubIt store, and #69 in the Nookstore), but everything else with erotic content seemed to be gone from the top 50 PubIt list.  I've asked around, and a couple of other erotica authors have noticed the same thing-- their bestselling books have been inexplicably saddled with a ranking that doesn't match sales in the least, and their books have subsequently dropped off the PubIt top 100.  

It's difficult to say exactly what's going on-- if it's another volley aimed only at erotica books, then why is Tina Folsom's Venice Vampyr in the top 100 now?-- but it should nevertheless act as a reminder to us all that our sales are at the mercy of outside forces.  I may have a few fans that look for my other name over there, but most of my sales depend on exposure, so my sales on that book dropped from 200 a day to 30 a day, and I expect they'll drop further today.  I have written B&N, of course, but my book no longer "deserves" the higher ranking thanks to its sudden drop in sales, so there's no real chance they'll reinstate its ranking.

Anyway, it's something for everyone to be aware of.  For all I know it may be happening to books outside the erotica genre as well.  And even if it's not, it's a reminder that we as indie writers are vulnerable to the whims of the companies that carry our books, and that those whims are not always fair.

[Selena_Kitt]

Yep, I can confirm this. I also talked to Laura Cooper, who had very very high rankings in erotica just last week - her "download sample" buttons disappeared at BN as well. About half of them. She didn't know about Kindle Boards and wasn't privy to the knowledge it was happening to others as well.

Looks like BN is trying to pull an Amazon, but doing it in a much sneakier way.

[jessicamorse]

Very strange. We finally got also boughts for PubIt, and now more weirdness.

It does seem strange that all of the sudden (aside from Tina's one book) all the erotic titles have fallen off the top 50. And as you said, Ellen, now that you're missing the exposure, sales will actually drop to match the ranking change, so there's no way to "prove" it was wrong.

[tawnytaylor]

This happened to me as well. 

Friday, my books were ranked between 150 and 200. Then suddenly, they were 1200, and I noticed that some of the search results had changed. However, it didn't seem to change the browsing line up for Erotica. My Friday and Saturday sales were great.

But then something did change and a whole new set of books too our places in Bestselling for Erotica. Either it was early Sunday morning or late Saturday, but my sales yesterday were roughly 10% of what they had been. It was a horrible shock. Today's numbers are looking even worse I thought about contacting B&N but I doubt much can be done now. Like you said, now my sales don't justify the former ranking--thanks to the loss of the exposure.

Extremely disappointing!

[Tina Folsom]

Ellen, thanks for posting this thread. I was away on a writing retreat the last five days without internet access, and was only able to react to all this yesterday afternoon.

What Ellen is reporting is correct. For whatever reason, Venice Vampyr is holding its ranking while my other books all dropped into the 1000s. Lawful Escort was in the top 100 of Nookbooks (not just Pubit) for over a week selling several hundreds of copies a day. According to my husband who watched my sales while I was gone, I continued to sell the same amounts while on the Bestseller list, including on Friday, and Saturday, and apparently on Friday my rank dropped from #33 overall to #1,034, and has been sliding ever since. Which is completely impossible, because Venice Vampyr which was holding around 90 - 100 at the same time sold about 1/3 of what I sold on Lawful Escort.

Why Venice Vampyr is still holding onto its ranking (currently at 74), I don't know, because it's in the same categories (ie. Erotica) with very similar keywords as Lawful Escort. I can only assume that it slipped through the cracks.

Lawful Escort is now selling about 20 copies a day (instead of several hundreds) because it's disappeared from the lists it's been on.

Needless to say, I'm furious about what B&N has done because empirical evidence (Lawful Escort vs. VV sales) suggests that they basically added 1000 to the rankings to penalize erotic authors once more.

Please, when responding to this thread, let's keep it on topic: this is about B&N manipulating the rankings to make certain books/genres less visible. It's not about whether we deserve it or not.

[Selena_Kitt]

Why Venice Vampyr is still holding onto its ranking (currently at 74), I don't know, because it's in the same categories (ie. Erotica) with very similar keywords as Lawful Escort. I can only assume that it slipped through the cracks.

They kept one in the top last time - Bella's book. It's like they're trying to create a decoy or something.

I sound like some crazy conspiracy theorist, I know.

I'm going to go pull my hair out, pace around my house and mutter now...

[tawnytaylor]

Tina, it appears BN only did this to some erotic books, not all. Specifically, it seems to have affected books ranked at or better than 200. I noticed, coincidentally that the sudden change in rank came at the precise time when BN reactivated a book that was temporarily unavailable due to content issues. When that book became available for purchase, our ranks plummeted. I wonder if BN manipulated our ranks to allow that book to maintain its position in the top 10 of Erotica.

I'm so frustrated about this. I called BN. Talked to someone who told me to email her the details. Just did that. I'll let you all know if I get anywhere. But with the AWFUL sales I'm seeing now, I don't know what they can do In a blink, 5 months of working and promoting is gone. Needless to say, I'm hoping for a miracle here.

[tawnytaylor]

Selena, you said "last time". Is this a regular thing at BN? Do they reset their rankings on a periodic basis? Knock the top down to give other books a chance to move up?

That was my theory yesterday...

They kept one in the top last time - Bella's book. It's like they're trying to create a decoy or something.

I sound like some crazy conspiracy theorist, I know.

I'm going to go pull my hair out, pace around my house and mutter now...

[foreverjuly]

It seems like we're talking about 2 different things: rankings and search results.

Rankings change all the time depending on how a book is doing, and you're saying they are manipulating the ranking to push erotica books out of the top spots. I'm not convinced that rankings in and of themselves mean sales. So I'm not surprised to hear your book was still selling hundreds even at a ranking of 1100. Like with Amazon, ranking seems to be pretty much just an ego thing.

Search results, which do a huge amount to influence sales, change all the time too, and our books are at the mercy of whatever algorithm they are implementing. I don't think this is something you can complain about (which you aren't, the OP makes the same point), because it is complete luck of the draw. Holly Hook who writes YA Fantasy was selling thousands a month because of good search results and then one day the algorithm changed and decimated her sales. That happens and you just have to enjoy it while it lasts. The motto here seems to be: "Live and die by the search results."

To say changes in search results "aren't fair" is difficult. There are tons of authors and books out there who would kill for that kind of exposure. 

[Selena_Kitt]

Selena, you said "last time". Is this a regular thing at BN? Do they reset their rankings on a periodic basis? Knock the top down to give other books a chance to move up?

I just meant last time they pulled something similar. Last time it was removing all the "download sample" buttons on erotic books.

[Tina Folsom]

I'm not convinced that rankings in and of themselves mean sales.

Actually they do, because they determine where you show up in the browsing areas. Lawful Escort was on the Top 100 B&N: it's not showing up on that list anymore. It also was on the first page when you go to the romance section in B&N: gone from there too. And my sales on that book are now at less than 5% of what they were before. Visibility is extremely important. And my visibility for this book has dropped to virtually zero because of the new ranking.

[Selena_Kitt]

Actually they do, because they determine where you show up in the browsing areas. Lawful Escort was on the Top 100 B&N: it's not showing up on that list anymore. It also was on the first page when you go to the romance section in B&N: gone from there too. And my sales on that book are now at less than 5% of what they were before. Visibility is extremely important. And my visibility for this book has dropped to virtually zero because of the new ranking.

And again, it seems to be targeted. Erotic books. Blake Crouch's "Run" which has been in the top 100ish, didn't drop 1000 rankings overnight. Just the erotic books did.

And I can tell you, I watch sales every single day and look at what books are selling and what their rankings are (we probably all do ) so when something changes so drastically, it's VERY evident.

[tawnytaylor]

Forever, what I've personally noted on B&N is that ranking determines where your book falls within its category for searching, and eventually, for browsing (it seems to take a little longer for the browsing categories to reset). Therefore, when the top twenty erotic books went from 100's to 1100's, their positions were knocked off those first pages for searching. That caused a domino effect that has our sales spiraling downward.

If I was convinced my sales justified a sudden drop in ranking, then I wouldn't be compelled to contact BN. However, my sales on Saturday were better than Friday, and yet my ranking didn't go back up. And, in fact, some of my lesser selling books bypassed my best sellers in rank. This makes no sense to me.

I did contact BN, explained what happened and asked if there is anything they can do. I'm hopeful but not expecting anything.

It seems like we're talking about 2 different things: rankings and search results.

Rankings change all the time depending on how a book is doing, and you're saying they are manipulating the ranking to push erotica books out of the top spots. I'm not convinced that rankings in and of themselves mean sales. So I'm not surprised to hear your book was still selling hundreds even at a ranking of 1100. Like with Amazon, ranking seems to be pretty much just an ego thing.

Search results, which do a huge amount to influence sales, change all the time too, and our books are at the mercy of whatever algorithm they are implementing. I don't think this is something you can complain about (which you aren't, the OP makes the same point), because it is complete luck of the draw. Holly Hook who writes YA Fantasy was selling thousands a month because of good search results and then one day the algorithm changed and decimated her sales. That happens and you just have to enjoy it while it lasts. The motto here seems to be: "Live and die by the search results."

To say changes in search results "aren't fair" is difficult. There are tons of authors and books out there who would kill for that kind of exposure. 

[Jan Hurst-Nicholson]

Sorry to be a thicky, but where do you find the rankings on Barnes & Noble?  

[Lisa Hinsley]

Sorry to be a thicky, but where do you find the rankings on Barnes & Noble?  

Thank goodness, I'm not the only one! I figured mine was selling so few, it didn't show up. 

[tawnytaylor]

On your book's page, the ranking will appear on the Overview tab, under Product Details.

Sorry to be a thicky, but where do you find the rankings on Barnes & Noble?  

[Scott Neumyer]

Something we also have to keep in mind with B&N rankings. I'm pretty sure they're based of profit rather than total number sold.

For example, a good friend of mine had a book at 7.99 and it was selling really well... Ranked 30 overall at the time. This friend changed the price of the book to $0.99 just to see what would happen. About two seconds later, the ranking had dropped to around 130. BIG difference. As soon as they changed the price back to 7.99, the ranking went right back up to where it was.

Interesting, no? My only conclusion is that they not only count in the overall sales but overall profitability. Who knows... Interesting idea though...

[tawnytaylor]

Really, Scott? This is interesting!

I didn't change my price last weekend, so I doubt that played a role. I haven't seen the same effect when I've put my books "on sale" at a lower price in the past.

Very interesting.

Maybe I'll go take a look at the pricing of those top ranked books now...

Something we also have to keep in mind with B&N rankings. I'm pretty sure they're based of profit rather than total number sold.

For example, a good friend of mine had a book at 7.99 and it was selling really well... Ranked 30 overall at the time. This friend changed the price of the book to $0.99 just to see what would happen. About two seconds later, the ranking had dropped to around 130. BIG difference. As soon as they changed the price back to 7.99, the ranking went right back up to where it was.

Interesting, no? My only conclusion is that they not only count in the overall sales but overall profitability. Who knows... Interesting idea though...

[modwitch]

 

I don't think there's the slightest thing I can do, but I just wanted to say, one non-erotica writer here who things this stinks.  For whatever tiny little bit that's worth.

[AnneMarie Novark]

I'm very sorry to hear this.

I know B&N's rankings and searches have affected the erotica genre the hardest, but something happened between January and February that affected the sales of my romance books, too.

For the life of me, I can't figure out what happened to make sales plummet.

I hope things will straighten out for everyone.

[MosesSiregarIII]

Interesting, because my BN.com ranking on my free ebook just improved A LOT. I used to always be at 1950-2000 (with very little change), but now I'm at 1,210 (and over the last couple days my ranking improved by about 150). So I think they have to be changing some things.

I noticed at one point that free books were always ranked 1000 or higher. So if you look at the top three free books for the Nook, they are currently ranked #1001, 1002, and 1003. That seems to suggest that they take whatever your ranking would actually be on a free ebook if they didn't rejigger the numbers and then add 1000 to it.

So I'm guessing that's what just happened to erotica. They're adding 1000.

This would partly explain why my ranking just improved. It doesn't explain an 800 point leap for me, though, unless there were 800 erotica titles that just flew past me.

[The Hooded Claw]

I'm an ignorant bystander in this stuff, is the unspoken assumption that BN changed the rankings to penalize erotica, presumably because they think having it visible will offend people?  Per other requests in the thread, I'm not encouraging a discussion of whether this is fair or right, but I want to make sure I understand what is happening.

[foreverjuly]

Something we also have to keep in mind with B&N rankings. I'm pretty sure they're based of profit rather than total number sold.

For example, a good friend of mine had a book at 7.99 and it was selling really well... Ranked 30 overall at the time. This friend changed the price of the book to $0.99 just to see what would happen. About two seconds later, the ranking had dropped to around 130. BIG difference. As soon as they changed the price back to 7.99, the ranking went right back up to where it was.

Interesting, no? My only conclusion is that they not only count in the overall sales but overall profitability. Who knows... Interesting idea though...

My experience is the opposite of your friends. I bounce back and forth between 99c and $2.99. My search results sink at 2.99 and rise at 99c, so I think percentage of clickers or total percentage of purchases is part of what influences the search results. It seems like all of our conclusions here have equally valid counterpoints, meaning no one really knows what they're doing over there.

[tawnytaylor]

No, actually I don't think that's what happened at all. If it did, then the top erotic book would have a ranking no better than 1000 and the relative ranking of all erotic books would have remained constant. That didn't happen. The top books, with the exception of a couple, were knocked down and others took their places.

My theory is a little more complicated, and it involves a book that was the second best selling erotica book (at that time). That book was inactivated for a while due to content issues (it was a book about incest). When that book was activated again, the fifteen to twenty books beneath it seemed to have had their rankings adjusted by adding 1000 to their previous rank. That pushed them out of the top twenty, caused a big shuffle of all erotic books.

Please keep in mind I'm guessing here, based on what I saw. I have no knowledge of BN's ranking systems.

I'm an ignorant bystander in this stuff, is the unspoken assumption that BN changed the rankings to penalize erotica, presumably because they think having it visible will offend people?  Per other requests in the thread, I'm not encouraging a discussion of whether this is fair or right, but I want to make sure I understand what is happening.

[The Hooded Claw]

Interesting.  So it might be a side effect of BN innocently implementing a decision to bring a book back to sale. Though apparently nobody really knows.  I'm glad I'm not a writer so don't have my emotions and finances tied up in something that can be shuffled at a keystroke!

Thanks, Tawny.

No, actually I don't think that's what happened at all. If it did, then the top erotic book would have a ranking no better than 1000 and the relative ranking of all erotic books would have remained constant. That didn't happen. The top books, with the exception of a couple, were knocked down and others took their places.

My theory is a little more complicated, and it involves a book that was the second best selling erotica book (at that time). That book was inactivated for a while due to content issues (it was a book about incest). When that book was activated again, the fifteen to twenty books beneath it seemed to have had their rankings adjusted by adding 1000 to their previous rank. That pushed them out of the top twenty, caused a big shuffle of all erotic books.

Please keep in mind I'm guessing here, based on what I saw. I have no knowledge of BN's ranking systems.