Indie Historical Novel Thread

[AmberQueen]

Welcome to the historical thread.

The Harlem Renaissance was a fascinating period in American history.

Thanks! And thanks for starting this thread! :-)

[AmberQueen]

I try to keep it strictly historical. That way, my conscience is clear. 

[J.S. Staffier]

I have my Versailles novel coming out shortly.  Stay turned "MA" fans!
JSS

[JRTomlin]

I'm curious if any of you all have ever wanted to write a story but basically held back because you just didn't feel you had the command of the material or if you just went ahead and then researched after the fact to add in the appropriate detail.

I'm definitely in the former camp. I'm bursting with a lot of ideas, but find I can't write a single sentence without pretty solid confidence in my period knowledge. In my last historical work, I was surprised how well this informed every little detail. It also was quite handy when some writing group partner or beta reader would insist I got some detail wrong and I could point to my sources.

Speaking of the last bit, has anyone had that trouble? A lot of time people's expectations of history are formed more by popular imagination and movies than actual history. In the process of getting one of my Regency stories critiqued, a person insisted several details were wrong and when I showed her primary source documentation to why I did it that way, she basically explained she thought they were wrong just because she hadn't seen the details in the various Regency novels of a few of her favorite authors.

I'm sure all of you who write medieval stuff have to deal with the clash between Hollywood Middle Ages and the real Middle Ages.

Is it better, people think, to somewhat be relaxed and accept that certain people are going to believe in the popular/Hollywood truth or do you keep it strictly historical?

Oh, many people have very wrong ideas medieval stuff, especially Scottish medieval stuff. People don't realize that almost everything in the movie Braveheart is wrong. Except that William Wallace was killed and that Edward I first was a *ahem* "not-nice-person", there wasn't a single thing in it that was right but then someone reads a well-researched novel and tells you that you must be wrong.

Of course, that's true of most movies about the middle ages. Very few of them get much of anything right, but that one is particularly bad.

Things like horses and weapons. Men didn't ride war horses (destriers) except to battle, for example and swords were not heavy, but when you say that in a novel someone says you're wrong. All kinds of things. So sure that happens. I guess you just have to deal with it. I keep it strictly historical, but I can see someone compromising rather than fighting the stereotypes out there. My medieval Scots don't wear kilts--because medieval Scots didn't. But I sometimes suspect my reader is visualizing them in kilts and what can you do? LOL

As far as the research, I write about medieval Scotland because I know about it and knew about it long before I started writing historical novels. It sometimes scares me a bit how much I know about it. I know more about the historical characters than I do about my own family it seems like. I might forget my daughter's birthday but not the anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn. (24 June 1314 in case you wondered) LOL

I can't imagine how difficult it would be to start from scratch about a period you don't know about. The foods, clothing, customs, the buildings, transporation... you have to know it all. A good historical writer in my opinion could move into the period and get by. I've always thought it would be interesting to write novels set in Carthage and about what jerks the Romans were but learning a new civilization is impossibly daunting. So I doubt I'll ever do it.

[Justin Alexander]

Oh, many people have very wrong ideas medieval stuff, especially Scottish medieval stuff.

This is something my mother feels quite passionate about in her books and stories: Getting it right is frequently more interesting and more dramatic than getting it cliched.

(She writes the Dame Frevisse and Player Joliffe series, both set in 15th century England.)

[MartinLake]

Wonderful.  A forum for historical fiction.  I woke this morning and thought it would be great if there was such a forum and, spookily, JR replied to my post of yesterday and pointed me in this direction.

I loved the discussion about research.  I fell foul recently when I discovered an inter-active web-site of the Domesday Survey. A new novel I am completing is now littered with places and names from the site which are not needed or interesting.  I shall have to be ruthless with my pruning.

Here is some information about my book which is available on Kindle and Smashwords.  I've also started a thread on my blog about This day in history which I'm enjoying putting together. The blog can be found at martinlake.blogspot.com

The Lost King: Resistance.  A long-suppressed story of resistance to foreign invasion.  Available for 70p, $1.14 or €0.99

I hope that my historical adventure will be of interest to you.

The Lost King tells the story of the last English King of England, Edgar Atheling.  His name and exploits have been almost totally erased from the history books by the Norman conquerors. 

One day in late October 1066 thirteen year old Edgar Atheling's life changes forever.  He learns that his hero, Harold Godwinson, has been slain on the battlefield of Hastings. 

A few hours later he is proclaimed King of England.  A week later he faces the Norman invaders in battle.

Two months after becoming king, Edgar is deserted by his supporters, forced to submit to Duke William and watch while he ascends the throne.  Edgar does not stay cowed for long, however.  Eighteen months later, horrified by the sufferings of the English, he decides to challenge William and win back the kingdom.

Edgar goes north to King Malcolm of Scotland.  With the support of Malcolm and a Danish army, Edgar launches a war of resistance against the Normans which will prove the greatest challenge ever faced by William.  The whole of England rises in support of Edgar.

The Lost King: Resistance tells the first part of a story of defiance which has been kept hidden for a thousand years.  It is a coming of age story from an age very different from our own.

Reviews.

'A novel full of intrigue and action that made gripping reading.'

'Convincing and full of atmosphere.'

'A fast-paced historical adventure utilizing colourful and complex characters to tell a truly dramatic story.'

Available for 70p in the UK, $1.14 in the USA and €0.99 in Europe.

The Lost King: Resistance




Martin Lake

[CJArcher]

I've always thought it would be interesting to write novels set in Carthage and about what jerks the Romans were but learning a new civilization is impossibly daunting. So I doubt I'll ever do it.

Me too, JR.  I'm fascinated with everything Roman but I just don't have the depth of knowledge that I do with the Tudor/Elizabethan so I haven't yet attempted to set a book then.  Pity, because I have a few good ideas.

[JRTomlin]

Exactly. To do historical fiction convincingly, you have to be really steeped in the culture and period. I grew up reading non-fiction about Scottish history and studied medieval history at university so writing about is writing about what I know and love both.

Maybe I'll look for some good non-fiction on Carthage though. When I finish this trilogy I'm working on and possibly a sequel to Freedom's Sword...

And welcome to the party, Martin. We'll never have as large a forum as the Romance folks but maybe we can bring a little more attention to all of our work. I hope so.

[MH Sargent]

Historical mystery.

A WWII novel depicting the honor and patriotism of Japanese-Americans.

On Bainbridge Island, Washington, over 250 Japanese-Americans are being evacuated to an internment camp. But a young fisherman is missing. When authorities search for him, they find two murdered Caucasians. A Seattle detective then investigates the murders, which points in the direction of the missing Japanese-American fisherman. But how does his vanishing act tie into the murders?

Toward Night's End

[Lisa J. Yarde]

I write historicals as well, mostly medieval from the 11th to the 13th century, though I have two other manuscripts in draft, one set in 5th century Gupta India and the other, a 17th century work on Barbary pirates. I like to say I write historical fiction with romantic elements (at least my first four works will be that), but I reject the idea that they are historical romances - nothing against the subgenre but my work doesn't fit the formula for it.

I'm also curious about the length of time other writers spend researching and writing their historicals. I started in 1996 with what has become my second book. I didn't finish the research and writing until 2005. My second manuscript, which I published first, took three years from inception to finish. Obviously I'm not one of those "book a year" writers. What are the averages for others?

[JRTomlin]

Because I was already well-read on that period of Scottish history and had a substantial personal library of non-fiction on it, I didn't really spend any time specifically on research, but this isn't something I'd advise unless it's a period you are extremely well-read on. I constantly double-checked my memory though and wrote with a stack of books next to my computer so I could be sure of the exact dates and numbers of armies and who did what. So I suppose in a way I spent a lot of time on research but it was mixed in with the writing. There was hardly a page when I wasn't double checking something.

For me a novel normally takes about six months to write and that's about how long both of my historical novels took. I hope my next one (a sequel to A Kingdom's Cost although that works perfectly well, I believe, as a stand alone novel) will take a bit less time, but I can't guarantee it.

[MartinLake]

Hi everyone.  An interesting question about how long it takes to write and research.

I was fascinated and surprised to discover that I started my historical novel The Lost King: Resistance in 2003 and only finished it last year.  That was less the research (I knew the period well) and more the writing, plus a whole lot of life to be lived including getting married.  The Lost King: Resistance

I am currently writing a novel set in the Kingdom of Jerusalem in the 12th century and am surprised that I am writing this much more quickly.  Some things have really helped: using a time-line, making a list of characters' ages, using power-point to story-board and so on.  Plus the whole period is so full of unbelieveable characters.

Martin

[JRTomlin]

Hi everyone.  An interesting question about how long it takes to write and research.

I was fascinated and surprised to discover that I started my historical novel The Lost King: Resistance in 2003 and only finished it last year.  That was less the research (I knew the period well) and more the writing, plus a whole lot of life to be lived including getting married.  The Lost King: Resistance

I am currently writing a novel set in the Kingdom of Jerusalem in the 12th century and am surprised that I am writing this much more quickly.  Some things have really helped: using a time-line, making a list of characters' ages, using power-point to story-board and so on.  Plus the whole period is so full of unbelieveable characters.

Martin

Using a time-line is an interesting point. I use one also and it's a huge help.

I've never used a story-board though. How does that work?

[MartinLake]

Story boards are a film industry concept (Disney's idea I've heard but not sure how true this is.)  They were sketches of the scenes of a film.

I use them in this way.  I now think of my novel in scenes instead of chapters.  I use Power-point, one slide for each scene and put the action, dates etc on each slide.  I can then easily add new scene_slides as I write, or move one scene-slide to a different location.

So far I've found it very useful.  Here are a couple of my scene-slide. 

Arrival
Thomas and Simon arrive in Jerusalem.  They meet the family
The army has left for Hattin
First inklings of religious conflict
They are taken round the city and meet Alexius the moneychanger
He advises them not to stay
June 17 1187

Befriending
The Ferriers decide to stay at the inn
Thomas realises his passion for Agnes and his sin rises in his thoughts
They meet Alexius at the inn who says he is leaving for Constantinople
They hear about the army marching to fight Saladin
June 18 1187

and so on.  I've never used it before but love it.

[MartinLake]

I've been busily tagging on the main board and it's made a difference and realised that I ought to start with the books on here.

I haven't time for the next few days but will start to tag on Friday.

I'd be delighted if you could tag my books:  The Lost King: Resistance

and Pick and Mix

Best wishes

Martin

[JRTomlin]

Good idea, Martin.

Ah, well, story boarding wouldn't work for me since I have NO idea what my scenes will be until I write them. I know the overall plot because it's dictated by Scottish history, but beyond that I am strictly a "seat of the pants" writer. Much of what happens in my novels is a bigger surprise to me than it is to my readers.  

[Paul Clayton]

I didn't think of historical thriller. That's a good point. Alternative history could fit as well.

Ha ha!

[JRTomlin]

Ha ha!

I'm not quite sure the point of your reaction. That alternative history might not be a form of historical novel? Some are very well researched so I'm not sure that I agree, but we all have our own opinions on these things. I am more likely to wince at including historical romance.

Even defining historical fiction as a genre opens a whole can of worms. I think there is no genre more difficult to define.

[SpearsII]

Awesome thread!

My wife writes historical fiction and we talk about this stuff all the time. We both have a love of history and its cool to see all the other historical fiction writers on KB. My wife takes about two years to write a book but is slowly getting a bit faster. It is easy to get a little envious of other writers who can craft their story unrestricted by actual events and the necessary research. Of course my job as marketing can't start till I get the story so maybe I am bit impatient  .  I watch my wife spend hours reading primary and not so primary sources so she can deliver a good story. I think the real trick though is to balance the fiction with the history. The fiction takes off from where history is silent. I think the history should lead to the story not be the story, otherwise I can just read a history book. I think Gates of Fire by Pressfield is one of my favorite examples of filling out the history with story.

And yes, one of my wife's biggest pet peeves is how the Middle Ages is so maligned in Pop-culture and Hollywood.

My wife writes with what I would call a loose outline style. She sets the story according to the history but is flexible with the scenes. Write with a plan, but remember plans change.         

Good luck with your own history making and thanks again for this cool tread.

[jabeard]

I've just started a massive research project for a Heian-era Japan historical mystery. I'm actually very familiar with the period, but I just need to really internalize the small details that help bring an era alive in fiction. I'm guessing it's going to take me a year or so before I'm even finished with my research.

Of course, that's one thing I love about historical fiction, you're always learning something during the research even if you never get around to applying it.

[JRTomlin]

Awesome thread!

My wife writes historical fiction and we talk about this stuff all the time. We both have a love of history and its cool to see all the other historical fiction writers on KB. My wife takes about two years to write a book but is slowly getting a bit faster. It is easy to get a little envious of other writers who can craft their story unrestricted by actual events and the necessary research. Of course my job as marketing can't start till I get the story so maybe I am bit impatient  .  I watch my wife spend hours reading primary and not so primary sources so she can deliver a good story. I think the real trick though is to balance the fiction with the history. The fiction takes off from where history is silent. I think the history should lead to the story not be the story, otherwise I can just read a history book. I think Gates of Fire by Pressfield is one of my favorite examples of filling out the history with story.

And yes, one of my wife's biggest pet peeves is how the Middle Ages is so maligned in Pop-culture and Hollywood.

My wife writes with what I would call a loose outline style. She sets the story according to the history but is flexible with the scenes. Write with a plan, but remember plans change.         

Good luck with your own history making and thanks again for this cool tread.

The vast misrepresentation of the Middle Ages is horrifying. There are exceptions such as the marvelous PBS series on Caedfael but those are so rare.

The time you have to spend researching really is dependent on how steeped you already are in the history. Even so, I write with a stack of references beside my computer so I can double check details.

When was it that James Douglas did personal combat with the Peacock of the North and killed him on the field of battle? Aha. *smug smile* I thought so.

[CJArcher]

I'm actually very familiar with the period, but I just need to really internalize the small details that help bring an era alive in fiction.

You're so right.  It is the small details that bring history to life, and I find those are the hardest to research.  It's easy to pick up a text and learn about the politics, religion or monarchies of an era but finding out the day-to-day stuff that an average person did can be harder.  For my Elizabethan English stuff I use Liza Picard's  Elizabeth's London which has lots of fascinating detail and she writes in a very accessible style with a wry sense of humour.

[Alex Sinclair]

I have written a historical, but I found the biggest challenge was doing something different to what is already on the market. I think my main issue was that several of the historicals I read just seemed really similiar, which kind of left me slightly frustrated. I decided to set, Under The Midnight Sky, in Japan during the Samurai era, which was a fun story to write and no where near as difficult as I thought it would be, lol.

[MartinLake]

Hi Alex,

I'm intrigued by your saying that books are similar.  In what way do you mean?

Martin

[Alex Sinclair]

Hi Martin, how to explain... I think two good authors can take the same character, in the same time period and tell similiar stories. It could be based on fact, BUT the writing styles will feel different. The atmosphere of the story will feel different. The feeling I have for the characters will be different. The books I read didn't have that. It was very same old, same old. The plot structure, the settings, the dialogue feels almost identical and so its hard to get into. I am not saying this about all historical books, no way. I love historicals. I just found the last few so dull, but I had the same thing with fantasy books I read. It was like this "theme" has been done to death, but has been done better by other authors and that frustrates me. I hope this makes sense, lol.