VOYAGER: Week of 4/27; Reading Chapters 14-23, Discuss Chapters 1-13 here

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

Sure helps my rheumatism. 

I wish he wouldn't drop by right after work, though.  He keeps gazing off into space and getting this funny look on his face. 

And he insists on discussing his day over dinner

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

And he insists on discussing his day over dinner

Of course, we never eat at his house, especially when he's serving liver. 

[PraiseGod13]

There is another scene that "haunts" me from these chapters and I don't think anyone has mentioned it.  It's the scene back in the jail cell after Jamie's flogging where the other prisoners quietly beat the young man who had actually had the plaid when Jamie took the blame.  And afterwards, the young man comes over to Jamie and apologizes.  That whole scene of his beating and his apology - and Jamie's acceptance of the apology and forgiveness - get ahold of me and won't let go..... totally typical for this series of books!  There is such a sense of honor - and notice that Jamie doesn't call out to or stop the men when he realizes what they are doing to the young man.  Yet here is Jamie - once again torn and bleeding - and he is able to do what is right and accept the apology and restore the young man to right-standing.  Phew........

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

You're right, that is a very intense occurrence. I think while Jamie felt he had to stand between the young man and the British, he also was well aware that the young man did have to face the consequence of his actions. The beating he took from the other prisoners was much less severe than what Jamie endured. Not only is he the laird of Lallybroch, he is the laird in the prison. He takes his role very seriously.

[bookfiend]

I think it corralates to the beating he gave Clair in Outlander.  The beating was to instill the fact that one persons small actions can greatly effect the group.  The men wouldn't accept her again until after the punishment,  and the prisoners wouldn't have accepted the boy without some kind of punishment or consequence.  Also in DIA when the servants insist on Furgus being beaten for allowing Clair to come home with a stranger.  I think its a sign of the times, Jamie doesn't have to like it, but it does have to happen.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

There is another scene that "haunts" me from these chapters and I don't think anyone has mentioned it.  It's the scene back in the jail cell after Jamie's flogging where the other prisoners quietly beat the young man who had actually had the plaid when Jamie took the blame.  And afterwards, the young man comes over to Jamie and apologizes.  That whole scene of his beating and his apology - and Jamie's acceptance of the apology and forgiveness - get ahold of me and won't let go..... totally typical for this series of books!  There is such a sense of honor - and notice that Jamie doesn't call out to or stop the men when he realizes what they are doing to the young man.  Yet here is Jamie - once again torn and bleeding - and he is able to do what is right and accept the apology and restore the young man to right-standing.  Phew........

That scene really got to me, too.  I felt like Jamie's sacrifice was in vain because the boy got beaten anyway.  There was more to it than that, though, as we discussed above.  Jamie not only wanted to save the boy from a flogging, but it was a way of distancing himself from John. 

You're right, that is a very intense occurrence. I think while Jamie felt he had to stand between the young man and the British, he also was well aware that the young man did have to face the consequence of his actions. The beating he took from the other prisoners was much less severe than what Jamie endured. Not only is he the laird of Lallybroch, he is the laird in the prison. He takes his role very seriously.

He is a natural leader.  People are drawn to Jamie, no doubt about it.  In rags and chained, they still know Jamie is laird. 

I think it corralates to the beating he gave Clair in Outlander.  The beating was to instill the fact that one persons small actions can greatly effect the group.  The men wouldn't accept her again until after the punishment,  and the prisoners wouldn't have accepted the boy without some kind of punishment or consequence.  Also in DIA when the servants insist on Furgus being beaten for allowing Clair to come home with a stranger.  I think its a sign of the times, Jamie doesn't have to like it, but it does have to happen.

They all seem to have a very refined sense of justice.  There is crime, there is punishment, there is redemption.  When Jamie punished Claire, the men forgave her to the extent that they kept finding excuses to stop by the side of the road so she could get off her horse and relieve her pain. 

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

They all seem to have a very refined sense of justice.  There is crime, there is punishment, there is redemption.  When Jamie punished Claire, the men forgave her to the extent that they kept finding excuses to stop by the side of the road so she could get off her horse and relieve her pain. 

They also made sure to swat her on the bum the next morning

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

They also made sure to swat her on the bum the next morning

Yes, they did, didn't they.   

[Anju No. 469]

Chapters 1-3

1. What did you think when Jamie awoke and found Jack Randall's body lying across him?
Jamie finally got his revenge

2.  How did you feel when you found out that Murtagh was dead?
very sad

3.  Talk about your feelings when Jamie wanted to die.
his life was falling apart, Claire was gone, his men were dead, what did he have to live for?

4.  How did you feel when Melton decided to send Jamie back to Lallybroch.
maybe thing would turn around for him

5.  What are your impressions of Roger and Brianna at this point?
he is smitten, she is coming around, but she is still young

6.  What was your impression of the scene where Claire tells Frank about Jamie.
She had no choice, but I don't think Frank really believed her at that time.

7..  Talk about Claire in the role of Frank's wife and being a new mother.
After the life she had just led it would seem tame, that is even including nursing during the war

8.  "Leap o' the Cask" is a real legend.  When you read it, did you think it was a real story?  What part did you think this legend was going to play in the story?
Thought it was probably real, and knew it would be tied in somehow

Part 2--Voyager

"Lallybroch"
Chapter 4-6

1.  How do you feel about Jamie living in the cave?
probably did not realize it would be so long before he could come out in the open again, but he was able to see and be with his family

2.  Were you surprised that Fergus is at Lallybroch?
Fergus is attached to Jamie and would not leave him for any reason

3.  Jenny appears again, what are your impressions of her?
Wouldn't she be a tiger nowadays?  Strong woman, but then a lot of women in that time frame had to be strong

4.  What do you think of Jenny trying to convince Jamie to marry?
She did not want him to grieve and thought he could have a life

5.  Give us your impression of the soldiers in Jenny's room right after the baby's birth.  What did you think was going to happen?
soldiers are bullies, in that time frame and I was a tad bit nervous

6.  How did you feel about Fergus' accident?
completely forgot about it, don't remember

7.  What is your opinion of Jamie's intention of being captured?
Only way he could save his family from starvation, and it would help keep him from being drawn and quartered

8.  Share your feelings about the scene between Jamie and Mary McNab
She needed to and felt he needed some softness

9.  At this point, have your impressions of Jamie changed?
He's getting mature and not quite so spontaneous, he is thinking of consequences

Part 3--Voyager

"When I am thy captive"
Chapters 7-13

1.  What was your reaction to Linklater's letter about Jamie?
ambivilious

2.  What did you think of the incident where Bree was left on her own and run over by a car?  Did you expect Frank to react the way he did?
Frank knew he couldn't have children, so he just took Bree as one of is own

3.  How has Jamie changed from the time of Culloden to his experience at Ardsmuir?
accepted that he was not going to die when he wanted to so might as well make the best of life

4.  What did you think of Major Grey?
had a feeling what would happen would happen and it did happen

5.  How did you feel about Jamie's handling of the situation with the dying man?
Very good, honest as well

6.  How did you feel about that same situation after hearing Jamie's side?
don't know

7.  Were you surprised that Grey began dining with Jamie on a weekly basis?
if the previous commander had not commented he probably would not have

8.  In what ways are Claire still with Jamie while he is in Ardsmuir?
she will always be in his heart

9.  How did you feel about Grey making a pass at Jamie and Jamie’s reaction to it?
you just knew having already known about Grey's inclination that he would make a pass, Jamie did quite nicely

10.  Why would Jamie have taken out the tartan for Grey to see knowing the penalty?
protection of "his" soldier

11.  How did you react to the flogging scene?
it was expected so no reaction

12.  How did you feel when Roger announced to Brianna that they had located Jamie?
excited and glad it did not take any longer

[imallbs]

"Battle, and the Loves of Men"
Chapters 1-3

"He was dead. However, his nose throbbed painfully, which he thought odd in the circumstances".

  What a great 1st line.  It sure did take Jamie a while to figure out he was alive.  And so much for that long, straight Fraser nose Clarie is always talking about.

1. What did you think when Jamie awoke and found Jack Randall's body lying across him?
Is he really, truly dead this time?  DG does have a habit of resurrecting people.  I guess the whole head not being attached to the body thing makes it pretty sure.

Jamie had once told Claire that what was between him and Randall would never be over until one of them was dead. Now it is over, but was Jamie the one who ended it?

 
I have assumed it was Jamie but I also wondered...t wouldn't have been out of character for Murtagh to have killed Randall to save Jamie.

2.  How did you feel when you found out that Murtagh was dead?
This was sad.  I'm going to miss Murtagh.  Murtagh's death leaves Jamie more alone than ever.

3.  Talk about your feelings when Jamie wanted to die.
In his mind, he was dead already; he just wanted to get it over with; after all, everything he cared about was either gone or jeopardized by his presence.

It must have been terrible for Jamie to watch his companions taken out one-by-one to be shot, especially those two young boys.  How awful for all of them.

  Yeah, he no longer cared for his own life but he stilled cared about the people around him. 

and he knew the seriousness of the wound.  He would die soon in any case; thank God that it need not be alone, in the dark

  How gut wrenching is that line?  I knew Jamie wasn't going to die but still....

4.  How did you feel when Melton decided to send Jamie back to Lallybroch.
I was wondering how DG was going to get him out of this.  Honor pays off - even if Jamie doesn't think so now.

5.  What are your impressions of Roger and Brianna at this point?
Things are moving a little fast are they not. 

Brianna seems to be maturing

Not quite the spoiled little teenager 1st presented in DIA

6.  What was your impression of the scene where Claire tells Frank about Jamie.
Claire is being blunt but in can come across as cruel.  She was just as blunt when she told Brianna that Jamie was her father.  No wonder people get a little angry.

It was the one time I actually felt really awful for Frank. His wife disappears and then returns at random, telling this surprisingly ridiculous story of where she's been.

  I felt the same way about Frank.  Now he gets to be honorable (Jamie's not the only one with that trait).  Is Claire drawn to honorable men?

7..  Talk about Claire in the role of Frank's wife and being a new mother.
At 1st she's still going through the motions while being half dead inside.  The rest (the history professor's wife) is the part she was prepared to play before stepping through the stones the 1st time.  I don't think that part of her life would have been any different.

8.  "Leap o' the Cask" is a real legend.  When you read it, did you think it was a real story?  What part did you think this legend was going to play in the story? 
I had no idea it was a real legend.
knew it had to have something to do with Jamie, otherwise, why bring it up?[/quote]  DG does a good job making everything work with everything else.  Considering the length of each book and the series as a whole, that's quite an accomplishment.

Part 2--Voyager

"Lallybroch"
Chapter 4-6

1.  How do you feel about Jamie living in the cave?
That had to have been hard to endure.  So close to the home and people he loved (minus the most important one) yet not able to be a real part of the family or take care of the people he is responsible for.  People were being killed, they were losing everything and he had to hide.

2.  Were you surprised that Fergus is at Lallybroch?
Not at all.  Wherever Jamie is, Fergus is

3.  Jenny appears again, what are your impressions of her?
The woman needs to chill.  That being said how do you survive an occupation without becoming more controlling of what you have left.

4.  What do you think of Jenny trying to convince Jamie to marry?
When Jamie and Claire got married, he told her he had nothing to offer.  That was not quite true but it sure is true now.  What was Jenny thinking?  I know she loves her brother and thinks anyone would be lucky to get him...but really.  Another thought, is she afraid he will take off now that he has nothing to keep him at Lallybroch and marriage and children will keep him at home.  She must be tired of worrying about him and wondering if he is dead.

5.  Give us your impression of the soldiers in Jenny's room right after the baby's birth.  What did you think was going to happen?

That was tense.  I was wondering what was going to happen when Jamie hid with the baby.  Fast thinking, telling the officer the baby was dead.  Young Jamie helped get the soldier out of there with his outburst.

6.  How did you feel about Fergus' accident?
Fergus would do anything to protect Jamie but I don't think he thought he would get caught.  I had always gotten away before.


Darn, I have to go to work.  I know it will be late for this week's discussion, but I'll try to come back here when I get off tonight - there's so much more I want to talk about.

[danfan]

I'm slowly catching up!!  I'm going to give my answers before going back to read everyone else's so that my answers are my first impressions rather than swayed by other views.

"Battle, and the Loves of Men"
Chapters 1-3

1. What did you think when Jamie awoke and found Jack Randall's body lying across him?
A little confused.... did Jamie kill him? If so, Jamie took on the last fight that maybe stopped him giving up his life - he had to stay alive to kill Randall rather than just let himself be killed.
Confused though with the same question that Claire had when she found Jamie's grave in Dragonfly in Amber - how was he buried so far away??

2.  How did you feel when you found out that Murtagh was dead?
Very sad, & a bit surprised since he's tough as old boots. Kind of thought he'd be around forever.

3.  Talk about your feelings when Jamie wanted to die.
Can't. I'll cry and I am at work.

4.  How did you feel when Melton decided to send Jamie back to Lallybroch.
Wow. and wow. An opening for so many chances! I didn't see that coming! He can't die now on that journey!

5.  What are your impressions of Roger and Brianna at this point?
Roger - I think he's one of those who has found his real calling in life & this is all a challenge he can't resist. I was worried for him finding 'Gillian' and what the results would bring.
Brianna - I want to shake her at this point. But understand the shock she is feeling completely.
As a couple, it seems a rather compelling attraction.

6.  What was your impression of the scene where Claire tells Frank about Jamie.
A little blunt! I imagine he must have been struck dumb & of course, couldn't possibly believe any of it. But how do you tell someone that kind of truth without being blunt?

7..  Talk about Claire in the role of Frank's wife and being a new mother.
I think she's just living for her daughter and to honor Jamie. She's in a very different role, that once she could have managed to live & love with Frank but obviously now has to do through duty. She's also honor bound to Frank who is standing by her the best way he can.


8.  "Leap o' the Cask" is a real legend.  When you read it, did you think it was a real story?  What part did you think this legend was going to play in the story?
No, I had no idea it was a real legend, but then throughout all the books so far I have wondered which parts were real, which fictionalized. I've routed through my encyclopedia a few times.
Figured it had to be Jamie but was sad that he had to spend so many years living that way.

Part 2--Voyager

"Lallybroch"
Chapter 4-6

1.  How do you feel about Jamie living in the cave?
So very difficult, and almost savage. A lonely existence that surely could have turned him savage if not for the infrequent comfort and love brought from home.


2.  Were you surprised that Fergus is at Lallybroch?
No, not really. I assumed Fergus would follow Jamie to the end of the world if he could.

3.  Jenny appears again, what are your impressions of her?
Tough & very strong; running the place alone, responsible for other families as well as her own in a state of living that is truly difficult to comprehend. Only the toughest could have managed that,

4.  What do you think of Jenny trying to convince Jamie to marry?
A typical sister reaction, I should say. She's never known what happened to Claire, or even known the truth about Claire in the first place. I think she just sees it as a practical solution that could chance a little happiness & companionship for Jamie.

5.  Give us your impression of the soldiers in Jenny's room right after the baby's birth.  What did you think was going to happen?
Terrified that the baby would start screaming & Jamie would be dragged out for execution.

6.  How did you feel about Fergus' accident?
Ugh! poor boy! But bloody stubborn too. I was thinking the same as Jamie - just give them the cask and run!

7.  What is your opinion of Jamie's intention of being captured?
Typical Jamie. I wasn't surprised - he's living an endless life in that cave, putting everyone at risk. He sees a solution to end that and help his family with money.

8.  Share your feelings about the scene between Jamie and Mary McNab
I thought that was a but odd.

9.  At this point, have your impressions of Jamie changed?
Not at all. He still has all the same qualities but has more time to think through what he thinks, feels and does.

Part 3--Voyager

"When I am thy captive"
Chapters 7-13

1.  What was your reaction to Linklater's letter about Jamie?
At this point it's confirming my suspicions and giving lots of hope! But still, Linklater doesn't know more... lots of digging still to do.


2.  What did you think of the incident where Bree was left on her own and run over by a car?  Did you expect Frank to react the way he did?
How awful! I'd be pressing charges against that babysitter. 
Frank surprised me, pleasantly. He was very open minded.

3.  How has Jamie changed from the time of Culloden to his experience at Ardsmuir?
I think part of him just takes it a day at a time. He's resigned to his fate and obviously no longer feels the need to die. He could have had plenty of chances to turn himself in while they were still executing Jacobite supporters. At some point, he says he's changed, he no longer feels the need to die over losing Claire. He has new roles that he takes on with the same strength as always.

4.  What did you think of Major Grey?
Immature, young. Not sure at first if a great presence or a terrible one.

5.  How did you feel about Jamie's handling of the situation with the dying man?
I don't think he could have done anything better - getting info without giving anything important away, and comforting the dying man at the same time.


6.  How did you feel about that same situation after hearing Jamie's side?
As above,

7.  Were you surprised that Grey began dining with Jamie on a weekly basis?
No. I figured from his predecessor that this was done for the benefit of both sides so would begin again soon enough.


8.  In what ways are Claire still with Jamie while he is in Ardsmuir?
I think remembering her, dreaming of hr pregnant, keeps him alive. Believing and hoping that she is somewhere safe with his baby. Using what he learned from her to keep his comrades healthy. And maybe hoping someday she'll come back - his escape to the coast shows he believes there might be that chance.


9.  How did you feel about Grey making a pass at Jamie and Jamie’s reaction to it?
oh no! not again!  I thought Jamie was very reserved given his history, but then I don't think Grey has the same sadistic mind as Randall, and maybe Jamie sees that.

10.  Why would Jamie have taken out the tartan for Grey to see knowing the penalty?
Did he take it out?  I thought it was found and Jamie just took the blame for it? He sees his role as leader and protector. To keep morale of the men. He's been flogged many times - he can live through it physically and the emotional burden of it can't be worse than before.

11.  How did you react to the flogging scene?
How many scars on his back now??

12.  How did you feel when Roger announced to Brianna that they had located Jamie?
Excited for all of them!

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

I'm slowly catching up!!  I'm going to give my answers before going back to read everyone else's so that my answers are my first impressions rather than swayed by other views.

Good to see you hear, danfan.  I'm assuming your screen name comes from Dan Radcliffe? 

1. What did you think when Jamie awoke and found Jack Randall's body lying across him?
A little confused.... did Jamie kill him? If so, Jamie took on the last fight that maybe stopped him giving up his life - he had to stay alive to kill Randall rather than just let himself be killed.

DG never says in the book that it was Jamie who killed Randall, but he hoped it was him and so do we. 

Confused though with the same question that Claire had when she found Jamie's grave in Dragonfly in Amber - how was he buried so far away??

Broch Morda wasn't far away from Lallybroch. 

2.  How did you feel when you found out that Murtagh was dead?
Very sad, & a bit surprised since he's tough as old boots. Kind of thought he'd be around forever.

I miss Murtagh. 

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

Welcome Darfan! Always happy to hear how others fell about Jamie and Claire.

A little confused.... did Jamie kill him? If so, Jamie took on the last fight that maybe stopped him giving up his life - he had to stay alive to kill Randall rather than just let himself be killed.
Confused though with the same question that Claire had when she found Jamie's grave in Dragonfly in Amber - how was he buried so far away??

Jamie did go back to Culloden, assuming he would die in the battle, but he was still a warrior, so he would go down fighting. However, he knew that the British had far superior forces and there was no way the Scots could survive. It would have gone totally against Jamie's personality to just walk into battle and let himself be killed with no action on his part. Also, Claire assumed that he would be buried on Culloden field in a mass grave with his clan.

[danfan]

Ok thanks.  When I was reading DIA, and Claire said - why was he buried there? - and with Randall being there, my mind conjured up a duel between them, far from Culloden after the battle perhaps. So when I read the scene of Randall dead & Jamie awakening on the battlefield, it threw me completely.

Oh my screen name Danfan - no, my name is Danielle and my surname begins with Fan LOL so danfan. Not very original afterall!