May, 2009 Comments

[mwvickers]

Some thoughts on the readings of the past few days. We read a few days ago where Saul consulted a spirit medium to bring up Samuel's spirit. Wow! That is expressly forbidden in the Law in Deuteronomy!! Which makes me wonder . . . Was that really Samuel who was speaking? Or was it a demon posing as Samuel? Would God participate in something He forbid in the Law and permit Samuel's spirit to be brought up?

You have brought up an interesting question that I have seen heavily debated.  Some think it is not a ghost, but is merely a demon.  I think, however, that the evidence does not support that view.  Let me explain.

First, let's simply take the Bible's words at face value.  It specifically says that it was Samuel's spirit.  If it was not, I think the Bible would have said as much.  In other words, if it were a demon impersonating Samuel, I would think the Bible would say so.  Therefore, I think it best to simply accept what the Bible says, namely that it was Samuel himself. 

Interestingly, the woman was very frightened when she saw Samuel's spirit.  Now, we don't know for sure why, but some have speculated that she was so surprised because she had never actually called up a spirit before; in other words, she had simply faked it in the past, but this time, it actually worked, assumedly because God permitted it (which is not the same as condoning it).

As far as God forbidding it, you are correct.  However, God simply forbid that man should do it, so He didn't really "participate" as in simply allowing it without punishment.  In fact, Samuel's spirit seems to have been allowed up one last time to rebuke Saul yet again and prophecy his approaching death for all of his rebellion against God.  Does that make sense?  God allowed it, but He still does not condone it (it didn't end well for Saul).

Another thing I have always wondered is, before Jesus's ransom sacrifice, were the dead merely dead

Okay, let's look to Jesus' words for this one.  In one of the gospels, the Saducees (who did not believe in the resurrection of the dead) tried to trick Jesus with a question about a woman who married seven men.  Jesus' response will help us here.  He proved that the resurrection was real when He explained that God said "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" (not "I was").  Therefore, Jesus said, God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.  In other words, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not merely dead. 

or were they in Heaven or Hell? I always thought that Jesus sort of "evened the score" - one perfect man for one perfect man - and then the way to Heaven was opened.

This one's a little less clear.  We know that the people weren't just dead, based on Jesus' words.  Where they were, however, is another matter. 

In Jesus' story (I personally don't think it was a parable) of the rich man and Lazarus, both men go to some holding place: the rich man to hell, and Lazarus to "Abraham's bosom/side."  Some have speculated (though we don't know for sure) that there was a sort of holding place outside of hell (separated by a chasm, according to the story Jesus told) where the righteous were "held" until the resurrection.  This has often been equated with "Paradise" (as Jesus told the thief on the cross).  If so, it was simply a holding place until Jesus' resurrection, where people are now in heaven (as most believe, I think).  This is certainly possible, though not certain.  After all, hell seems to be a holding place until Judgment Day when "death and hell/Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire" (according to Revelation).  So, it is possible that there was a holding place separated by a chasm until Jesus' death and resurrection (unless people can see back and forth from heaven to hell now, which I doubt, but cannot prove that they can't).

The righteous shall live by faith, as both the New Testament and the Old Testament say.  So, most believe that Jesus' death paid the fine for the righteous who had gone on before, looking forward to a promise (Jesus) that was not yet there for them.  Living in faith in God's promises kept them from hell even before they were in heaven, if that makes sense. 

And if the dead were merely "asleep in death" until a ransom could be paid for them, what is the deal with Samuel being brought forth??

I hope that my above answers, if taken together, helped make the above a little clearer. 

God bless.

[Cowgirl]

Suzanne...you always make me look at things a little differently!!!

[mwvickers]

Suzanne...you always make me look at things a little differently!!!

That's one of the things I love about this group.  Everyone brings up their own perspective, questions, comments, etc., and it allows us all to consider things from a different angle, so to speak. 

[Suzanne]

Thanks, Martin. What you said makes sense.

Another thing I thought of after I posted my last comment was about the transfiguration when Jesus was seen with Moses & Elijah. This really had to be them to my way of thinking, and yet Jesus hadn't paid the ransom yet for Adam's sin.

Suzanne...you always make me look at things a little differently!!!

Yep, Cowgirl, I seem to have a "unique" way of looking at things!!! 

[mwvickers]

Another thing I thought of after I posted my last comment was about the transfiguration when Jesus was seen with Moses & Elijah. This really had to be them to my way of thinking, and yet Jesus hadn't paid the ransom yet for Adam's sin.

Very true, and I hadn't thought about that as an example.  LOL

You really want to ponder something?  I think it's interesting that Peter recognized Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration.  How would he have known that it was them, or what they looked like, other than by some possible divine revelation from God? 

[marianneg]

Revalation calls Christ the lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world.  That has always implied to me that the cross was always a "done deal," and that from the beginning people have been covered by His blood.

In an interesting side note, I'm currently reading Heaven by Randy Alcorn, and he emphasizes that the current Heaven is "only" an intermediate place for those that have died until Christ returns to establish His kingdom and we live in our ultimate destination, the New Earth.

[Suzanne]

Very interesting thought, marianner. When I read the creation account at face value in Genesis, it seems to me that God's purpose for man was to populate the earth & tend it, both animals & plant life. The fact that Adam & Eve chose to be disobedient did not change God's purpose for the earth. When Adam was told about not eating of that one particular tree, God simply said the punishment would be death. And just because Adam chose to be disobedient did not mean God's purpose for the earth had changed.  Mind you, these are just my own personal speculations on the matter.

[lynninva]

I'm not an expert in end-times theology, but my understanding is that the current earth will be destroyed at the end.  This quote from Rev 21 (NKJV) seems to support that:

"1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

[lynninva]

John 16:33 is one of my all-time favorite verses. From today's reading:
   
'I have told you all this so that you may have peace in me.  Here on earth you will have many trials and sorrows.  But take heart, because I have overcome the world."

[Anju No. 469]

John 16:33 is one of my all-time favorite verses. From today's reading:
   
'I have told you all this so that you may have peace in me.  Here on earth you will have many trials and sorrows.  But take heart, because I have overcome the world."

Thanks - I have not read today's readings yet -

[Suzanne]

Thanks, Lynn. I haven't read today's portion yet. But I must say that out of the four gospels, John is my favorite.

[Linda Cannon-Mott]

I too love the gospel of John. I ordered the DTB of Max Lucado's book in order to study it. He is one of my favorite authors because reading his books is like sitting across the table from him over a cup of coffee and having great conversation. Thought I would share the intro he wrote.

He's an old man, this one who sits on the stool and leans against the wall. Eyes closed and face soft, were it not for his hand stroking his beard, you'd think he was asleep.

Some in the room assume he is. He does this often during worship. As the people sing, his eyes will close and his chin will fall until it rests on his chest, and there he will remain motionless. Silent.

Those who know him well know better. They know he is not resting. He is traveling. Atop the music he journeys back, back, back until he is young again. Strong again. There again. There on the seashore with James and the apostles. There on the trail with the disciples and the women. There in the temple with Caisphas and the accusers.

It's been sixty years, but John sees him still. The decades took John's strength but they didn't take his memory. The years dulled his sight but they didn't dull his vision. The seasons may have wrinkled his face, but they didn't soften his love.

He had been with God. God had been with him. How could he forget?

The wine that moments before had been water - John could still taste it.

The mud placed on the eyes of the blind man in Jerusalem - John could still remember it.

The aroma of Mary's perfume as it filled the room - John could still smell it.

And the voice. Oh, the voice. His voice. John could still hear it. I am the light of the world...I am the door...I am the way, the truth and the life.

I will come back and take you to be with me.

Those who believe in me will have life even if they die.

John could hear him. John could see him. Scenes branded on his heart. Words seared into his soul. John would never forget. How could he? He had been there.

He opens his eyes and he blinks. The singing has stopped. The teaching has begun. John looks at the listeners and listens to the teacher.

If only you could have been there he thinks.

But most of the people here weren't even born then. And most who were with Jesus are dead. Peter is gone. So is James, Nathaniel, Martha, Bartholomew. They are all gone. Even Paul, the apostle who came late, is dead.

Only John remains.

He looks again at the church. Small but earnest. They lean forward to hear the teacher. John listens to him. What a task. Speaking of one he never saw. Explaining words he never heard. John is there if the teacher needs him.

But what will happen when John is gone? What will the teacher do then? When John's voice is gone and his tongue stilled. Who will tell them how Jesus silenced the waves? Will they hear how he fed the thousands? Will they remember how he prayed for unity?

How will they know? If only they could have been there.

Suddenly in his heart he knows what to do.

Later, under the light of a sunlit shaft, the old fisherman unfolds the scroll and begins to write the story of his life...

In the beginning was the word...

[Anju No. 469]

Apparently I have not been as exposed as much to John as I should have been.  This is an absolute marvel to read and enjoy!

[Suzanne]

Thank you for sharing that, Linda. Now, you know I must read the book!  I have quite a few of Max Lucado's books but not that one. He truly is gifted.

[Angela]

Our Sunday School class has been doing a verse by verse study of the book of John for the past year and a half. We are almost finished. I love John and have been enjoying reading through it again.

[Linda Cannon-Mott]

Thank you for sharing that, Linda. Now, you know I must read the book!  I have quite a few of Max Lucado's books but not that one. He truly is gifted.

Suzi so you know, this is a gospel of John study book/workbook with questions. I am enjoying it but it is not like Traveling Light or the Applause of Thunder, etc.

[Anju No. 469]

Today's lesson from John was absolutely - I can't even think of a word to describe it - I read it twice and think I will read it again later today.  I know the denomination I used to go to would go through the complete NT in a three year time period, but I honestly do not remember all the value of John.

Our Bible study is going to do Galatians next, but think i will push for John for the next session.

[lynninva]

Today's lesson from John was absolutely - I can't even think of a word to describe it - I read it twice and think I will read it again later today. 

And after reading Jesus' prayer for the apostles, it is even more amazing & humbling to think that He is interceding on our behalf in heaven now - Romans 8:34:

   "Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us."

And then it goes on in the next verses to describe how nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Suzanne]

Did you all notice the difference between Absalom & David? To David, it was unthinkable to strike down God's anointed king; not so with Absalom. No doubt Absalom had heard of the opportunities David had to kill Saul and heard David's feelings on the matter, that it was unthinkable on his part to touch God's anointed. What a difference in the heart conditions of Absalom & David.