VOYAGER: Week of 5/18; Reading Chps 40-52, discuss Chps 31-39 here

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

Moving right along, we'll read chapters 40-52 this week. 

Lots of things happening in this week's chapters so let's get to it.  Feel free to add anything that I might have forgotten. 

"Home Again"
Chapters 32-39

1.  How did you feel when you first saw Lallybroch again?

2.  Do you think Jenny was truly glad to see Claire?

3.  How did you feel about Ian and Jenny’s treatment of Jamie?

4.  What did you think of Ian making Jamie punish Young Ian?

5.  What did you think of Jamie having Young Ian thrash him?

6.  What did you think when the teenage girl showed up at the bedroom door and yelled, “Daddy?”

7.  What did you think of Claire’s reaction?  Jamie’s?

8.  What did you think of Jamie and Claire’s “argument,” ending with Jenny throwing a bucket of water on them?

9.  It appeared that Jenny couldn’t wait to get rid of Claire.  Why do you think that was?

10.  Did you think Claire would really go back through the stones, or did you think she would just go back to Edinburgh and wait for Jamie to come after her?  Any other scenarios come to mind?

11.  What did you think of Young Ian riding after Claire to bring her back to Lallybroch?

12.  When Claire gets back, she all but pushes Jenny out the door.  Why do you think she did that?

13.  Do you think Jamie was really dying?

14.  It’s a good thing Claire brought penicillin back with her.  Why do you think she did that?  Is there anything else she might have brought with her?

15.  After Jamie explains the situation to Claire, do you think she has really forgiven him for marrying Laheer?  Why do you think she didn’t tell Jamie that it was Laheer that tried to have her killed at Cranesmuir?

16.  What did you think of Jenny’s confession to Claire?

17.  Wasn’t it great to see Ned Gowan again?  Do you think the settlement he worked out for Laheer was fair and equitable?

18.  After everything that happened, were you surprised that Ian and Jenny let Young Ian go with Jamie and Claire?

19.  Why do you think Young Ian was taken? 

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

"Home Again"
Chapters 32-39

1.  How did you feel when you first saw Lallybroch again?

Like I had come home.  Some things had changed, at least outwardly, but it was still home.

2.  Do you think Jenny was truly glad to see Claire?

Yes, but guardedly so.  Her first thought is Young Ian, and there’s a lot of tension surrounding that.  Also, she doesn’t know what Claire returning means for her relationship with Jamie.

3.  How did you feel about Ian and Jenny’s treatment of Jamie?

Ian and Jenny resent what Jamie does and they resent their dependence on him.  That doesn’t stop them from taking his money.  I feel like they put an awful load on Jamie and that they feel it is their due.  At least they have rationalized it that way. 

4.  What did you think of Ian making Jamie punish Young Ian?

Sounds like a very Brian Fraser solution to the problem. 

5.  What did you think of Jamie having Young Ian thrash him?

A very Jamie-like thing to do.  He has a very well-developed sense of justice. 

6.  What did you think when the teenage girl showed up at the bedroom door and yelled, “Daddy?”

Whoever she is, she’s too old to be Jamie’s real daughter, even if Mary McNab had gotten pregnant from their night in the cave. 

7.  What did you think of Claire’s reaction?  Jamie’s?

Claire gave up everything, risked her life to come back, and she finds out Jamie didn’t trust her enough to tell her the most important thing about himself?  Yes, I can understand her anger.  I also understand that Jamie was terrified of losing her again.  He didn’t trust her either. 

8.  What did you think of Jamie and Claire’s “argument,” ending with Jenny throwing a bucket of water on them?

Some very, very strong emotions going on, here.  These two people don’t do things by half when it comes to their feelings for each other.  Jenny had to stop them somehow.  I’ll bet the chickens stopped laying for a week. 

9.  It appeared that Jenny couldn’t wait to get rid of Claire.  Why do you think that was?

Jenny said something strange, I thought.  She said that she wouldn’t let Jamie get at Claire again.  Jenny is no stranger to this kind of scene; she knew what was really going on.  I think she was already pushing Claire out the door, trying to convince her that Jamie was a danger to her. 

Jenny doesn’t know what to expect.  I think she sees Claire as trouble for Jamie and the whole Murray family. 

10.  Did you think Claire would really go back through the stones, or did you think she would just go back to Edinburgh and wait for Jamie to come after her?  Any other scenarios come to mind?

I think Claire would have gone somewhere and waited for Jamie to find her.  She had plenty of money and could always set herself up again as a healer.  Jamie would be sure to find her and she knew that.  No way was she going to risk everything to find Jamie again, and then just fade quietly away without a fight.  That’s not Claire.

11.  What did you think of Young Ian riding after Claire to bring her back to Lallybroch?

Ian has guts and initiative.  I know I’m going to like this kid very much.

12.  When Claire gets back, she all but pushes Jenny out the door.  Why do you think she did that?

Claire needs Jamie all to herself so she can take care of him.  She can’t let anyone see the penicillin.  More than that, Jenny can’t bring herself to keep out of Jamie’s business.  She’s a very strong woman, but sometimes very strong women can’t help meddling in other people’s affairs.  Claire let her know that she wouldn’t tolerate Jenny’s interference.  Jamie is Jenny’s brother, but he is Claire’s husband. 

13.  Do you think Jamie was really dying?

He might have since he had a pretty high fever.  I think he was just hoping he would die since he’d lost Claire alone.  Jamie has a very morbid streak. 

14.  It’s a good thing Claire brought penicillin back with her.  Why do you think she did that?  Is there anything else she might have brought with her?

Jamie does have a tendency to be mortally wounded.  I think Claire was just being practical.  After what they went through at the Abbey, she wasn’t about take any chances.  Claire took a big chance bringing the penicillin and the photos.  I think she wanted to keep the risks to a minimum. 

15.  After Jamie explains the situation to Claire, do you think she has really forgiven him for marrying Laheer?  Why do you think she didn’t tell Jamie that it was Laheer that tried to have her killed at Cranesmuir?

I think it’s a provisional forgiveness.  She understands that kind of loneliness, but she needs to see if Jamie is going to set things right.  Claire may have been afraid that if Jamie knew about Laheer, he would take matters into his own hands. 

16.  What did you think of Jenny’s confession to Claire?

Meddling old besom.  I understand Jenny’s concern for Jamie, but his welfare wasn’t her primary concern.  It was her own need to keep Jamie tied to her.  I lost a lot of respect for Jenny here. 

17.  Wasn’t it great to see Ned Gowan again?  Do you think the settlement he worked out for Laheer was fair and equitable?

Gotta love Ned.  No, I don’t think it was a fair settlement.  Jamie has supported Laheer and her daughters, but their marriage is now invalid.  I don’t think bigamy can be proved because Jamie didn’t know Claire was still alive.  But knowing Jamie as we do, he would take care of them.

18.  After everything that happened, were you surprised that Ian and Jenny let Young Ian go with Jamie and Claire?

Yes, very surprised, even though they said they wanted to give him his freedom while it appeared that the choice was still their’s. 

19.  Why do you think Young Ian was taken? 

Ian was obviously where he wasn’t supposed to be, taking the treasure that these people thought was their’s and maybe it was.  I wondered though, why they didn’t kill him.  They could have just left him there or dumped him in the ocean.  Not that I want anything to happen to Young Ian.  He’s going to be alright, isn’t he?  Right? 

[Toby]

     I almost dropped the kindle when I read Laheer's name. Then, I remember when I wondered into the wrong thread, the 1 where people read the series. Like a moth to a flame, I saw the word, Outlander & went there. Then, realizing that I should not read this thread, I quickly exited.  Anyway, I thought that Claire had already told Jamie about that Laheer tried to kill her in 1 of the past books. I thought that Jamie had asked her why she left the castle, when he told her not to. Did she tell him???
     I was so upset last week walking around in a daze, wondering why doesn't Jenny like Claire anymore? Then, I read the answer & understood a bit of her motivation, but felt like you Gertie. My opinion of her went way down in my book. I also agree with you about them taking Jamie's money. Jamie's only doing the best he can & after everything that he's gone through, Geesh, give him a break!!! I think Ian has that male ego. He can't support them - male pride & Ian & Jenny are possessive of Young Ian, who is a mini Jamie in character. After all, it's their son, not Jamie's. Uggggg!!! Give me a break!
     I forgot, why did Jamie NOT  tell Young Ian to go after Claire??
     Ned Gowan - I love him. LOL! It was wonderful to see his character again. He & Claire hit it off. Actually, even though he tried to get Claire off during the witch trials, it was Jamie who rescued her, otherwise I thought it was Geille that convinced the judges. Or..was it Ned? Can't remember as that was a very scary scene.
     Got to go read now.

   

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

     I almost dropped the kindle when I read Laheer's name. Then, I remember when I wondered into the wrong thread, the 1 where people read the series. Like a moth to a flame, I saw the word, Outlander & went there. Then, realizing that I should not read this thread, I quickly exited. 

She got what she wanted then she didn't want it.  I'm guessing that Jamie was the one thing she wanted that she didn't get, and so when the chance came, she married him.  She knew what that entailed, but married him anyway.  That is one selfish, self-centered, female dog. 

Anyway, I thought that Claire had already told Jamie about that Laheer tried to kill her in 1 of the past books. I thought that Jamie had asked her why she left the castle, when he told her not to. Did she tell him???

She never said who sent her to Gellie's house.  She didn't know herself right off. 

     I forgot, why did Jamie NOT  tell Young Ian to go after Claire??

"Want ye back? No! Want ye to come back to me for nothing but pity, the same as ye might show for a dog in a ditch?  Bloody hell!  No!  I forbade the little bugger to go after ye!"

     Ned Gowan - I love him. LOL! It was wonderful to see his character again. He & Claire hit it off. Actually, even though he tried to get Claire off during the witch trials, it was Jamie who rescued her, otherwise I thought it was Geille that convinced the judges. Or..was it Ned? Can't remember as that was a very scary scene.

Ned did his best, but they had decided to toss Claire and Gellie into the water.  Jamie might have been able to save Claire.  He certainly stopped them in their tracks when he tossed the ebony necklace over Claire's head.  But it was Gellie that threw herself away by declaring that she was the witch, not Claire, and showing them the witches mark (vaccination scar) on her arm.  That gave Jamie and chance to get Claire away.

Yes, it was scary.  Every time I read it, it's scary. 

     Got to go read now.

More adventure to come. 

[danfan]

wow, this was an exciting and tense section of the book!

"Home Again"
Chapters 32-39

1.  How did you feel when you first saw Lallybroch again?
So happy but a little nervous. Jenny has been matriarch for a long time now - how will she feel at the thought that Claire may move back in?  Can Claire & Jamie move back in?  I was hoping so!

2.  Do you think Jenny was truly glad to see Claire?
Yes and no. I think she was very tense about what it could mean.

3.  How did you feel about Ian and Jenny’s treatment of Jamie?
As said above, they resent having to depend on him.  Am I right in remembering that Young Jamie doesn't live there, even though Jamie deeded it all to him? So Jenny I think sees herself as "laird" (I'd say Lady and Ian as Laird, but she wears the trousers, so to speak)

4.  What did you think of Ian making Jamie punish Young Ian?
I think perhaps it was Ian's way of making sure Jamie didn't encourage the kid ever again!

5.  What did you think of Jamie having Young Ian thrash him?

He's done it before I recall. But also his way of making sure Young Ian never puts Jamie in that position again!

6.  What did you think when the teenage girl showed up at the bedroom door and yelled, “Daddy?”
In my moment of horror, I didn't think about age and thought of Mary McNab.

7.  What did you think of Claire’s reaction?  Jamie’s?
Claire was totally horrified, as she would be. When I read the name Laoghaire (sp?), I physically gasped out loud and covered my face! I couldn't believe what I was reading and I could 100% understand Claire's fury & terror, shaking as she dressed. I would have been the same, I am sure! Heck, I was the same, thinking WHAT HAS HE DONE??  I wasn't thinking much about his reaction, I was too shocked. This was a whole section of his life Claire, or us, knew nothing about. How could he??

8.  What did you think of Jamie and Claire’s “argument,” ending with Jenny throwing a bucket of water on them?
!!!!

9.  It appeared that Jenny couldn’t wait to get rid of Claire.  Why do you think that was?
That was a double whammy, wasn't it?  I thought so many things - I had to take a break to think about them. My main thought was that she was worried that Claire would want to move back in and have them take over Lallybroch. The only unselfish reason I could think was that Claire would disappear again & leave Jamie in mourning once more.

10.  Did you think Claire would really go back through the stones, or did you think she would just go back to Edinburgh and wait for Jamie to come after her?  Any other scenarios come to mind?
I think she was hoping he'd follow her, but yes I though she would go through the stones. As she sees it, to have other children of that age, he must have remarried & had a whole other life that she didn't know about and that kind of secret was a major betrayal. Did he really want her back that much? Did he really mourn her absence that much? 

11.  What did you think of Young Ian riding after Claire to bring her back to Lallybroch?
I was reserving judgment on it - had Jamie sent him because he thought he'd make it worse if he went himself? I really wasn't sure why until it was all explained.

12.  When Claire gets back, she all but pushes Jenny out the door.  Why do you think she did that?
Heck, Jenny betrayed both of them. Who'd want her there?

13.  Do you think Jamie was really dying?
Don't know, Claire never really said if she thought he was. Probably he would have though without her help.

14.  It’s a good thing Claire brought penicillin back with her.  Why do you think she did that?  Is there anything else she might have brought with her?
She'd wished for it many times when she was there the first time. I'm sure she wished she'd took much more. Many other things she knows she can get by with herbs etc, but antibiotics were surely the "must have" item.

15.  After Jamie explains the situation to Claire, do you think she has really forgiven him for marrying Laheer?  Why do you think she didn’t tell Jamie that it was Laheer that tried to have her killed at Cranesmuir?
I think she understands but it might be a while before she can forgive, perhaps.  I never understood why she didn't tell him. She knew as soon as she arrived at the fiscal's house and found Geilie that it was a set up. Still, I don't understand why she didn't tell him when she finds out they'd married. Certainly he'd understand her fury even more. I'd have told him just to make him feel more guilty LOL

16.  What did you think of Jenny’s confession to Claire?
Well, it wasn't the unselfish reason she could have given (protecting Jamie from more heartache) but it wasn't the worst reason I was thinking. Still selfish though - Jamie didn't even live there and she was worried that Claire would take him away. I still think there was more to it.

17.  Wasn’t it great to see Ned Gowan again?  Do you think the settlement he worked out for Laheer was fair and equitable?
It was great! Shame he wasn't acting on Jamie's behalf and it might have been better. Not sure how fair it was but beats the other options.

18.  After everything that happened, were you surprised that Ian and Jenny let Young Ian go with Jamie and Claire?
Very! Also confirms my thinking that Jenny's displeasure it more selfish that really about Ian. Can you tell I don't like her anymore??

19.  Why do you think Young Ian was taken?
I suspected that someone was waiting for the day Jamie returned with someone, perhaps as hostage or to kill Jamie.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

wow, this was an exciting and tense section of the book!

"Home Again"
Chapters 32-39

1.  How did you feel when you first saw Lallybroch again?
So happy but a little nervous. Jenny has been matriarch for a long time now - how we she feel at the thought that Claire may move back in?  Can Claire & Jamie move back in?  I was hoping so!

Yes, they can move back in, but Young Jamie is laird, now. 

3.  How did you feel about Ian and Jenny’s treatment of Jamie?
As said above, they resent having to depend on him.  Am I right in remembering that Young Jamie doesn't live there, even though Jamie deeded it all to him? So Jenny I think sees herself as "laird" (I'd say Lady and Ian as Laird, but she wears the trousers, so to speak)

Young Jamie has his own house.  Three guesses as to why he doesn't want to live with his mother.  Nothing is said in the books, but it's pretty obvious, as you said, that Jenny thinks of herself as laird.  Maybe we should say "lairdy."

9.  It appeared that Jenny couldn’t wait to get rid of Claire.  Why do you think that was?[/b]
That was a double whammy, wasn't it?  I thought so many things - I had to take a break to think about them. My main thought was that she was worried that Claire would want to move back in and have them take over Lallybroch. The only unselfish reason I could think was that Claire would disappear again & leave Jamie in mourning once more.

They can't take over.  The estate legally belongs to Young Jamie. 

[danfan]

Yes, they can move back in, but Young Jamie is laird, now. 

Young Jamie has his own house.  Three guesses as to why he doesn't want to live with his mother.  Nothing is said in the books, but it's pretty obvious, as you said, that Jenny thinks of herself as laird.  Maybe we should say "lairdy."


They can't take over.  The estate legally belongs to Young Jamie. 

Yeah, I realize that but perhaps she thinks they'll still try to exert themselves. I think she fears Claire in more ways and feels very threatened by her, whatever the cause.  She's dependent on Jamie and they all know that so despite the legality of the ownership, he has more sway and power than he'd ever enforce. Jenny knows he wouldn't hold that over her, but she doesn't know if Claire would.

One of the reasons I say that is because of the hastiness in her decision to inform Laoghaire. She couldn't wait and see, even give it a day or 2 to interrogate Claire - it was an instant decision to cause trouble and get Claire out the door.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

Yeah, I realize that but perhaps she thinks they'll still try to exert themselves. I think she fears Claire in more ways and feels very threatened by her, whatever the cause.  She's dependent on Jamie and they all know that so despite the legality of the ownership, he has more sway and power than he'd ever enforce. Jenny knows he wouldn't hold that over her, but she doesn't know if Claire would.

I think you're right about that.  Jenny already knows to what lengths Claire will go to protect Jamie.  Claire could very possibly push Jenny aside; not as far as the estate, but Claire won't tolerate Jenny meddling in Jamie's life anymore.  What she doesn't know at this point, is Claire's purpose in coming back. 

It's an interesting development.  I think we all liked Jenny at first.  Now, it's 20 years later, and circumstances have changed everyone. 

[danfan]

I've often wondered why Jamie never told Jenny the truth about Claire's disappearance - maybe he just thought that it wouldn't make a difference so why bother. But I wonder if it would have made a difference to how she felt about Claire's return and about Claire herself?

As an aside, The other thing I've been wondering about Claire coming through the stones is that she could have agreed with Brianna some way to communicate, at least one way. My first thought when she came through was Brianna doesn't know if she made it or not. I'd have set something up - whether it was carving a message into a rock or burying something for Brianna to find in the future. Maybe I've just read too many sci fi books!

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

Home Again"
Chapters 32-39

1.  How did you feel when you first saw Lallybroch again?
Ah – home at last! After 20 years, with so many changes, Lallybroch was pretty much the way Claire had left it.

2.  Do you think Jenny was truly glad to see Claire?
She didn’t act like it, but maybe that was because she was more concerned with Young Ian.

3.  How did you feel about Ian and Jenny’s treatment of Jamie?
They seemed to be so hard on Jamie. They blamed him for Young Ian running away. They also acted like Jamie was such a bad person for the things he did, even though that was how he provided for everyone. Maybe the problem was that he did provide and they resented the fact that they were dependent on him.

4.  What did you think of Ian making Jamie punish Young Ian?
At first, it seemed unfair to Jamie, but Ian had tried everything else. Jamie seemed to be the one person Young Ian would listen to, so Ian thought this might work. They were pretty much out of options.

5.  What did you think of Jamie having Young Ian thrash him?
Brian Fraser would have been proud. Jamie was so good at reading people (except Claire). Young Ian was so much like him, that he knew that what would work on him would work on Young Ian.

6.  What did you think when the teenage girl showed up at the bedroom door and yelled, “Daddy?”
Who in the world is this? Jamie only had 2 children – William and Bree. Was he married?

7.  What did you think of Claire’s reaction?  Jamie’s?
If I was Claire, I would have been furious too. She was devastated. She knew when she went back that there was a chance Jamie had married, but that was one little “detail” he neglected to tell her about, especially when he introduced her in Edinburgh as his wife. Jamie had no right to be angry. He should have trusted Claire and told her. Instead, he let the fear of losing her rule.

8.  What did you think of Jamie and Claire’s “argument,” ending with Jenny throwing a bucket of water on them?
This was so true to their personalities. Both of them had tempers and they tended to bring out the best and worst in each other.

9.  It appeared that Jenny couldn’t wait to get rid of Claire.  Why do you think that was?
I have wondered if Jenny blames Claire for leaving Jamie and is afraid she will desert him again.

10.  Did you think Claire would really go back through the stones, or did you think she would just go back to Edinburgh and wait for Jamie to come after her?  Any other scenarios come to mind?
Claire just needed to get away from Jamie and be able to think. I don’t think she was ready to go back through the stones, but that was the first thing that came to mind. She was hurt so bad. Jamie had lied to her and then Jenny was so anxious to get rid of her.

11.  What did you think of Young Ian riding after Claire to bring her back to Lallybroch?
Young Ian was showing how much like Jamie he really was. Even though Jamie told him not to go after Claire, he knew that was the right thing to do.

12.  When Claire gets back, she all but pushes Jenny out the door.  Why do you think she did that?
She would take care of Jamie, but she was not up to dealing with Jenny. Also, she could not let Jenny know about the penicillin that she had.

13.  Do you think Jamie was really dying?
Whether or not he was, he wanted to. He had lost Claire again, and could not face it.

14.  It’s a good thing Claire brought penicillin back with her.  Why do you think she did that?  Is there anything else she might have brought with her?
Claire remembered how it was the first time, and knew that she could help more with some modern medicines. Penicillin was the best overall option, because it could take care of a lot of different problems. Since she could not really carry a bag with her, she had to limit what she brought.

15.  After Jamie explains the situation to Claire, do you think she has really forgiven him for marrying Laheer?  Why do you think she didn’t tell Jamie that it was Laheer that tried to have her killed at Cranesmuir?
She could have forgiven him for marrying anyone but Laheer, but that was not fair to Jamie, because he didn’t know about what happened at Cranesmuir. Claire knew that it would only make things worse to tell Jamie now.

16.  What did you think of Jenny’s confession to Claire?
I am not sure if Jenny was thinking of Jamie or herself. Claire was the only love of Jamie’s life, so she should have been happy for him to have her back.

17.  Wasn’t it great to see Ned Gowan again?  Do you think the settlement he worked out for Laheer was fair and equitable?
I love Ned. He had already proven that he would take care of Claire, when he went to Cranesmuir for her. I think he was overly generous to Laheer, but he knew what it would take to clear things up for Jamie and Claire.

18.  After everything that happened, were you surprised that Ian and Jenny let Young Ian go with Jamie and Claire?
I was at first, but after the way Jamie had handled disciplining Young Ian, Ian and Jenny knew that he really cared about the boy and would do his best to take care of him. They also knew if they said no, he would run away after Jamie at the first opportunity, and that could be more harmful.

19.  Why do you think Young Ian was taken?
Being young and strong, he would make great slave labor.

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

I've often wondered why Jamie never told Jenny the truth about Claire's disappearance - maybe he just thought that it wouldn't make a difference so why bother. But I wonder if it would have made a difference to how she felt about Claire's return and about Claire herself?

As an aside, The other thing I've been wondering about Claire coming through the stones is that she could have agreed with Brianna some way to communicate, at least one way. My first thought when she came through was Brianna doesn't know if she made it or not. I'd have set something up - whether it was carving a message into a rock or burying something for Brianna to find in the future. Maybe I've just read too many sci fi books!

Jamie couldn't really tell anyone about Claire's leaving. That would mean telling that she was a time traveler. A lot of people already thought she was a witch. If Jenny knew how Claire left, and then she showed back up, Jenny would be convinced she was a witch and then what would happen? It was easier to let people think she was dead, because she was to Jamie. He never thought he would see her again.

[Toby]

     There was also something that I thought was odd. Jenny had apparently told Young Jamie's child/children that Claire was a witch. The child had said that to Claire, when they all came over to see their great auntie Claire. I remember reading something to that affect & now am wondering if Laheer had told Jenny that Claire was a witch.
     Thanks Gertie! That is what I remember. That scene is aweful as well as that French Dr./Executioner, with the cream. Ich!!! Also Black Jack. With all that, I was so disturbed by Jenny's actions towards Claire. I felt Claire's betrayal. It was like they were friends/sisters before. Claire saved them from starving with planting the potatos. I could not imagine why Jenny would not want Claire as opposed to snivling Laheer. Also, as someone said, Jamie wasn't even living at home. I do think it helped reading what everyone said. I think Jenny was selfish & wanted to be Queen of the roost, the top dog. Laheer always was in love with Jamie. She didn't care if Jamie was NOT in love with her. LOL! Selfish girl!! I wanted to say the B word. 
     Thanks Gertie for the quote. so, Jamie wanted to never have Claire come back if it was only in pity. Okay, I get it. I really do. Plus, he was in pain & not thinking straight. Still, he knew that she could leave him FOREVER. He should have forgotten his pride & told Young Ian to go after her. Thankfully, Young Ian, did go after Claire. Smart boy.
     

[Toby]

     Gertie, I thougt of you. Saw Harry Potter's Goblets of Fire, the 3rd book, on TV last weekend.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

     Gertie, I thougt of you. Saw Harry Potter's Goblets of Fire, the 3rd book, on TV last weekend.

I should change my screen name to #1 Potter Fan.   

[danfan]

     There was also something that I thought was odd. Jenny had apparently told Young Jamie's child/children that Claire was a witch. The child had said that to Claire, when they all came over to see their great auntie Claire. I remember reading something to that affect & now am wondering if Laheer had told Jenny that Claire was a witch.
     
     

Yes, that bothered me too when one of the grandchildren said that. Didn't Jenny ask Jamie at one point when he was hiding in the cave if Claire was a witch, and Jamie said (paraphrasing) "something like that". I'll have to look it up; it was when he dipped his knife in boiling water to cut meat & said Claire taught him to do it.
I think over time Jenny came to her own conclusion without that other evil one, Laheer, sticking her nose in, and since she never dreamed that Claire would be back, passing the stories on to her children may have seemed harmless I suppose. Made me mad though!  I've really gone off Jenny!

[danfan]

I wonder what other people think about Jamie's choice of work, smuggling and the printing business, living by aliases and having to make his living through crime?  I know that time was particularly brutal for those in Scotland, but Jamie wasn't exactly typical - a natural leader, street smart as well as book educated, and with friends in high places. He had already been pardoned twice, so I found myself frustrated that he was again in a position that could/ would put him on the wrong side of the law and at risk of hanging again.
 
I know Jamie has his pride and honor, not one to draw in favors from others & that he felt he had no choice but to do this so he could take care of his family, so I completely understand it, but I can't help feeling frustrated. Anyone else have any thoughts on it?

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

I wonder what other people think about Jamie's choice of work, smuggling and the printing business, living by aliases and having to make his living through crime?  I know that time was particularly brutal for those in Scotland, but Jamie wasn't exactly typical - a natural leader, street smart as well as book educated, and with friends in high places. He had already been pardoned twice, so I found myself frustrated that he was again in a position that could/ would put him on the wrong side of the law and at risk of hanging again.
 
I know Jamie has his pride and honor, not one to draw in favors from others & that he felt he had no choice but to do this so he could take care of his family, so I completely understand it, but I can't help feeling frustrated. Anyone else have any thoughts on it?

Smuggling seems to have taken the place of cattle lifting as an honorable highland profession.  Yes, Jamie is definitely a risk taker.  I think his experiences in the last 20 years have hardened him.  He's no longer the dashing young laird.  Now, he's a tough, mature man, willing to do what is necessary to take care of his family and tenants, even though they are no longer his responsibility.  Jamie could no more shirk what he perceives as his duty, than he could cut Claire out of his heart. 

What he's seen happen to Scotland after Culloden certainly taught him that the English wouldn't play fair.  As far as he's concerned, turnabout is fair play.  Jamie is not about to let the injustices of the last 20 years go without an answer from him.  He's always been a man of action.  He's just taking action in a different way.

[danfan]

Thanks for that perspective, Gertie. Yes, I see that too, *sigh* I'd just like to see him not struggle & suffer for change, and either running from something or chasing something else. I'd happily read a while of a simple happy life for the pair of them.

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

Smuggling seems to have taken the place of cattle lifting as an honorable highland profession.  Yes, Jamie is definitely a risk taker.  I think his experiences in the last 20 years have hardened him.  He's no longer the dashing young laird.  Now, he's a tough, mature man, willing to do what is necessary to take care of his family and tenants, even though they are no longer his responsibility.  Jamie could no more shirk what he perceives as his duty, than he could cut Claire out of his heart. 

What he's seen happen to Scotland after Culloden certainly taught him that the English wouldn't play fair.  As far as he's concerned, turnabout is fair play.  Jamie is not about to let the injustices of the last 20 years go without an answer from him.  He's always been a man of action.  He's just taking action in a different way.

You said what I was thinking. Jamie's first priority was taking care of his people, whether it was family of tenants. Whether or not he was breaking the law was not really a factor, as much as what he felt was the right thing to do. Jamie was first and formost, a man of honor - isn't that part of what make him so irresistable?

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

You said what I was thinking. Jamie's first priority was taking care of his people, whether it was family of tenants. Whether or not he was breaking the law was not really a factor, as much as what he felt was the right thing to do. Jamie was first and formost, a man of honor - isn't that part of what make him so irresistable?

That he is.  Honor, duty, responsibility, loyalty.  He gives all he has to others, yet his sister, the one who should love him best, will deny him the one and only thing that Jamie wants for himself; Claire. 

[danfan]

That he is.  Honor, duty, responsibility, loyalty.  He gives all he has to others, yet his sister, the one who should love him best, will deny him the one and only thing that Jamie wants for himself; Claire. 

  @ Jenny

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

Ok, I am going to play the devil's advocate here. We are mad at Jenny for trying to send Claire away, thinking she is doing it for selfish reasons. But, the first time Jamie left Lallybroch with Claire, he lost her and was an empty shell for 20 years. Was Jenny afraid that history could repeat itself? True, Jamie was alone, but he had built a new life in Edinburgh and he was able to see his family on occasion, because they were staying put. What if he left with Claire again and she left him? He would be totally destroyed and would not even have his family to turn to.

I always like to stir the pot!

[danfan]

Ok, I am going to play the devil's advocate here. We are mad at Jenny for trying to send Claire away, thinking she is doing it for selfish reasons. But, the first time Jamie left Lallybroch with Claire, he lost her and was an empty shell for 20 years. Was Jenny afraid that history could repeat itself? True, Jamie was alone, but he had built a new life in Edinburgh and he was able to see his family on occasion, because they were staying put. What if he left with Claire again and she left him? He would be totally destroyed and would not even have his family to turn to.

I always like to stir the pot!

LOL pot stirrer

Actually, I've tried to convince myself of that a few times, but I just haven't been able to (in my answers to q9 and 16 above I toyed with that). If she'd said that, maybe - maybe - I could believe it, but the explanation she gave was that she was afraid Claire would take him away again, whereas like her, Laoghaire was rooted living there and she'd hoped would keep him there.

Maybe she'll prove me totally wrong later on & I will eat my words, or maybe she'll realize that Jamie having to go anywhere isn't Claire's fault but just how things have to be.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

LOL pot stirrer

Actually, I've tried to convince myself of that a few times, but I just haven't been able to (in my answers to q9 and 16 above I toyed with that). If she'd said that, maybe - maybe - I could believe it, but the explanation she gave was that she was afraid Claire would take him away again, whereas like her, Laoghaire was rooted living there and she'd hoped would keep him there.

Yes, Jenny's reasons seem selfish on the surface, but underneath, they are completely selfish.  Jamie is her beloved brother, but she doesn't seem to make him really welcome in her home.  Her home, not his anymore.  We saw how Ian changed toward Jamie, which more than likely means that Jenny changed toward him, too.  They need him, they love him, but they resent him. 

Jenny is so much like Jamie.  Her family comes first, too, and her family is Ian, her children and her grandchildren.  As such, she'll let Jamie struggle under the burden of providing for them all, yet condemn him for the means of his doing so. 

[imallbs]

Lots of things happening in this week's chapters so let's get to it.  Feel free to add anything that I might have forgotten. 

"Home Again"
Chapters 32-39

1.  How did you feel when you first saw Lallybroch again?
I didn't really have a reaction to it. This was Jamie’s childhood home but he barely lived there as an adult and Claire lived there less than he did.  Even though Jamie feels responsible for the people, the place belongs to young Jamie – and Jenny.

2.  Do you think Jenny was truly glad to see Claire?
Jenny was conflicted.  She really liked Claire and was glad she was alive but didn’t know how things were going to play out.


3.  How did you feel about Ian and Jenny’s treatment of Jamie?
People tend to devalue the things they need when they are not the one providing it.  Jamie is bringing in the money, they need it to survive but they stay and put in all the hard work.  It doesn’t help that the money is from illegal activities.  And, Jamie is putting their kid at risk.


4. What did you think of Ian making Jamie punish Young Ian?
Young Ian isn’t exactly listening to Ian.  It sounded like it was born of desperation.  Young Ian obviously looks up to Jamie and nothing Ian and Jenny have done has worked.  They are also exasperated with Jamie so it gets to be a punishment for both Young Ian and Jamie.


5.  What did you think of Jamie having Young Ian thrash him?
So Jamie like.  Brian Fraser instilled a since of honor and justice in Jamie that life just can’t knock out of him, no matter how hard it tries.


6.  What did you think when the teenage girl showed up at the bedroom door and yelled, “Daddy?”Confusion
What did Jamie not tell Claire? And Who is the mother? And if she is a teenager, wasn’t Jamie in prison? And Spoiled. Little. Brat.


7.  What did you think of Claire’s reaction?  Jamie’s?
Claire was understandably not in the mood to listen.  I can see Jamie not telling her about the marriage.  When Jamie first saw Claire he was shocked (she had had a lot of time to get used to the idea of being with Jamie again but it was all new to him) then stuff started happening and kept happening.  Also their relationship is very tenuous at this point; he probably didn’t want to risk her running off in a very Claire like way.

8.  What did you think of Jamie and Claire’s “argument,” ending with Jenny throwing a bucket of water on them?
I am not impressed with Jenny.  Jamie and Claire were not arguing any worse than Jamie and Jenny argued when he first brought Claire to Lallybroch.  Claire had the decency to wait outside; Jenny either has another agenda or has some serious control issues…or both


9.  It appeared that Jenny couldn’t wait to get rid of Claire.  Why do you think that was?
Jenny couldn’t really have thought that Jamie would hurt Claire could she?  Jamie does lead a very ruff life but there has been nothing to indicate that he would hurt someone unless they were threatening him or someone he loved or protected.  No, Jenny has another agenda.  She wants Claire gone and she wants Jamie to stay.


10.  Did you think Claire would really go back through the stones, or did you think she would just go back to Edinburgh and wait for Jamie to come after her?  Any other scenarios come to mind?
I think Claire had every intention of going back through the stones when she left Lallybroch.  20 years hasn’t changed anything, Claire still reacts first and thinks later.  If she had made it to the stones, she probably would not have gone through them because she knows she would probably die.  Once she didn't go through the stones she could have gone someplace where Jamie could come find her.  Of course Jamie could have ridden up on his white horse as Claire was ready to step through the stones and pulled her back just in time, saving her again.  Or Claire could have come to her senses and gone back to Lallybroch to find out what was really going on.  Once back she probably would have wanted to 1. Kill Jamie, 2.  Kill the wife and 3. Find out what was going on – in that order.


11.  What did you think of Young Ian riding after Claire to bring her back to Lallybroch?
Oh, Young Ian, nobody can control ye.  He adores his uncle but defies him.  Interesting how he knew that Jamie needed Claire and Jenny didn’t


12.  When Claire gets back, she all but pushes Jenny out the door.  Why do you think she did that?
Claire needed privacy to administer the penicillin.  The evilness in me wants to think that Claire got some satisfaction pushing Jenny out.  That let Jenny know that Claire is still Jamie’s wife and Jenny is only his sister.  Claire got a little even for the reaction she got when she first got there.


13.  Do you think Jamie was really dying?
In any other book, yes.  In this series, the dead don’t stay dead so, really, what difference would it have made.  Jamie would just have woken up the next morning like nothing had happened.  And how many times does this man have to tell people to let him die?  It’s getting a little melodramatic, but funny.  I say let the man die that way he can get up the next morning and be over it.  Claire seemed to get a great deal of pleasure sticking the “ingrate” and “coward” with a nice big needle.  I pictured her making a real show of filling the syringe when she was getting ready to stick him.


14.  It’s a good thing Claire brought penicillin back with her.  Why do you think she did that?  Is there anything else she might have brought with her?
Claire lamented the lack of modern medicines the 1st time she went back.  And, knowing Jamie as she did, she had to have known that he would need the penicillin sooner or later.  What else could she have brought besides the penicillin the pictures, money and the plastic wrap (but plastic isn’t biodegradable so I’ve decided that it was waxed paper)?  She had to hide everything that didn’t belong 200 years in the past so it would have been very dangerous to bring more stuff.  Speaking of the money, didn’t that money already exist 200 years in the past?  Did Claire just increase the amount of money in circulation?  When  old money is found in the future will each coin be found twice?   If the money ever comes in contact with itself, will the universe explode?


15.  After Jamie explains the situation to Claire, do you think she has really forgiven him for marrying Laheer?  Why do you think she didn’t tell Jamie that it was Laheer that tried to have her killed at Cranesmuir?
I think she wants to forgive him and is working towards it as they work towards being together again.  At least Jamie’s being near death, again made her stay and listen.  The forgiveness is more for Jamie not telling Claire than for getting married.  But Laoghaire?  Maybe Claire should have told Jamie so he would understand the whole reaction.  Jamie may have wanted to go after Laoghaire but his history with her and because he cares for the girls, he wouldn’t have…I don’t think.

16.  What did you think of Jenny’s confession to Claire?
Jenny should have told Claire the truth instead of trying to manipulate everybody; she has changed a lot.  I know she had to resort to deception and manipulation to get through the occupation but enough already.  I get the wanting Jamie to be married, (come one, she tried when he was living in a cave), I get her not wanting to lose her brother, but she was willing to sacrifice Jamie’s happiness to do it…that I don’t get.


17.  Wasn’t it great to see Ned Gowan again?  Do you think the settlement he worked out for Laheer was fair and equitable?
It was so great to see Ned Gowen again (and he didn’t even come back from the dead)
No the settlement wasn’t fair.  Laoghaire and her daughters were supported and would continue to be supported.  But Jamie wanted to put that marriage behind him and paying off the shrew was the only way to do it.  Jamie was pretty understanding of Laoghaire’s attitude towards him, explaining it away and all.  But I think she was going to be a shrew no matter what happened after Culloden.

18.  After everything that happened, were you surprised that Ian and Jenny let Young Ian go with Jamie and Claire?
No, not surprised.  They knew they were not going to stop him and it probably seemed relatively safe. 


19.  Why do you think Young Ian was taken?
These men had to know the treasure was there so in their minds maybe Ian was stealing it from them or the person who sent them there.  And Ian is young and strong; they can press him into service or sell him as a slave or into indentured servitude.

I like that Fergus was comfortable enough and accepting of Claire that he could tell her about being in love and about his dreams.  Losing the printing business really hurt him.  I hope he finds another way.
Was Hamish mentioned when they talked about Leoch?  I don’t remember seeing any more about him.
I wonder who the men on the ship work for.  Did that person hide the treasure or did that person just know about it?