VOYAGER: Week of 5/25; Reading Chps 53-End, Discuss Chps 40-52 here

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

Time to plunge right to the deep end of the pool.  You officially have my permission to finish Voyager ... not that most of you haven't already.   

Here's this week's questions.  I'm not answering them this time, but I'll still discuss with you as you respond.

Part 8--Voyager

"On The Water"
Chapters 40-52

1.  Has Jared changed since we saw him 20 years ago?

2.  How did you feel about Claire’s visit to the hospital?

3.  How did you feel about Jamie being a Mason?

4.  We meet another historical figure, Mayer Rothschild.  Do you like it when DG introduces us to these figures?  Would the story be as interesting without them?

5.  Knowing Jamie’s susceptibility to seasickness, do you think he will overcome it after a day or two at sea as Jared assures him he will?

6.  What complications can you forsee for Jamie now that Fergus has eloped with Marsali?

7.  Why do you think Jamie waited so long to let Mr. Willoughby help him?

8.  What do you think of Claire’s final letter to Bree?

Stand up straight and try not to get fat.

9.  What did you think of Mr. Willoughby’s story? 

10.  Once again, Claire finds herself talking to a young girls about what to expect in a marriage.  How well do you think Claire handled Marsali’s questions?

11.  Do you think Captain Leonard was justified in taking Claire away on the Porpoise?

12.  Were you surprised to find John Gray aboard the Porpoise?  Do you think he recognized Claire? 

13.  Tompkins holds the key to what happened in Edinburgh and Arbroath.  What did you think of his story?  Do you still think there is another traitor among the smugglers?

14.  Do you think Claire made the right decision to escape from the Porpoise?

15.  What did you think of Claire running across the naturalist Jamie mentioned in a swamp a half a world away?

16.  What did you think of Father Fogden’s story? 

17.  Do you think Father Fogden is insane, or just drunken and eccentric?  What do you think about his sheep?

18.  Were you surprised when Jamie showed up on the Porpoise?

19.  How do you think Jamie got to be captain of the guard on Hispaniola?

20.  Discuss Marsali and Fergus’ wedding.

[danfan]

I meant to re-read these chapters at the weekend. I only read them about a week ago but I'm already halfway through Fiery Cross so I have forgotten a lot by now. Will answer what I can!


2.  How did you feel about Claire’s visit to the hospital?
I was touched by it. By now, I'd forgotten about Faith so wondered at first who she was visiting. Sad 

3.  How did you feel about Jamie being a Mason?
Surprised and not surprised at the same time. Wondered when on earth he found time in his up and down life!


5.  Knowing Jamie’s susceptibility to seasickness, do you think he will overcome it after a day or two at sea as Jared assures him he will?
No, I couldn't see how.

6.  What complications can you forsee for Jamie now that Fergus has eloped with Marsali?
Well, I'd hoped Jamie never had to lay eyes on Laoghaire or her offspring ever again. I see that witch blaming him for absolutely anything that could go wrong, like accusing him of kidnapping even. ugh.



8.  What do you think of Claire’s final letter to Bree?

Stand up straight and try not to get fat.


Kind of odd that last line; didn't take Claire to be the type to be bothered by something like that. Sounds very much something like my mother used to tell me.

9.  What did you think of Mr. Willoughby’s story?
I was really absorbed in that and felt very sad for him. I'm an immigrant through choice in a modern time, which can be hard enough, and I am always very moved to hear such hardships of people fleeing their land and how they are treated when they seek refuge. Of course, he had to go and ruin it with his rant about European women after he'd finally gained everyone's sympathies!

10.  Once again, Claire finds herself talking to a young girls about what to expect in a marriage.  How well do you think Claire handled Marsali’s questions?
Extremely well given that Marsali had been ignoring her for weeks and just called her a whore. I would have been hopping mad and doubt I could have held my tongue so well! I was so angry at Marsali and that even Fergus hadn't been able to stop her attitude.

11.  Do you think Captain Leonard was justified in taking Claire away on the Porpoise?
I am sure he thought he was, but Claire had given him enough information that they could have dealt with it, albeit with less dedication than Claire.

12.  Were you surprised to find John Gray aboard the Porpoise?  Do you think he recognized Claire?
I knew he'd show up somewhere again and was pleased when he did. I like John Grey a lot. Don't think he recognized her.

13.  Tompkins holds the key to what happened in Edinburgh and Arbroath.  What did you think of his story?  Do you still think there is another traitor among the smugglers?
Yes I think there is another traitor.

14.  Do you think Claire made the right decision to escape from the Porpoise?
Yes - what else could she do?

15.  What did you think of Claire running across the naturalist Jamie mentioned in a swamp a half a world away?
I wasn't too surprised. In that time, how many naturalists were there really? Not too many I imagine, and no less of a coincidence then when my mother was in a rainforest in Australia and bumped into someone she knew 30 years ago LOL!

16.  What did you think of Father Fogden’s story?
Kind of odd!! Wasn't sure why we got all of that, didn't seem to fit anything.

17.  Do you think Father Fogden is insane, or just drunken and eccentric?  What do you think about his sheep?
Drunken and eccentric but maybe driven insane by the solitude and his crazy mother in law. His sheep were his only family now.

18.  Were you surprised when Jamie showed up on the Porpoise?
No, but I did groan very loudly!

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

I meant to re-read these chapters at the weekend. I only read them about a week ago but I'm already halfway through Fiery Cross so I have forgotten a lot by now. Will answer what I can!

Wow, you're moving fast. 

8.  What do you think of Claire’s final letter to Bree?

Stand up straight and try not to get fat.


Kind of odd that last line; didn't take Claire to be the type to be bothered by something like that. Sounds very much something like my mother used to tell me.

The strange things we think of when under a great deal of stress.  My mother still tells me to stand up straight.   

15.  What did you think of Claire running across the naturalist Jamie mentioned in a swamp a half a world away?
I wasn't too surprised. In that time, how many naturalists were there really? Not too many I imagine, and no less of a coincidence then when my mother was in a rainforest in Australia and bumped into someone she knew 30 years ago LOL!

I was in Ireland, enjoying a medieval dinner in Bunratty Castle, and the people across from us lived around the corner from my mother.  Neither one of us were on a tour.

16.  What did you think of Father Fogden’s story?
Kind of odd!! Wasn't sure why we got all of that, didn't seem to fit anything.

Other than explaining he eccentricity. 

17.  Do you think Father Fogden is insane, or just drunken and eccentric?  What do you think about his sheep?
Drunken and eccentric but maybe driven insane by the solitude and his crazy mother in law. His sheep were his only family now.

I think it was a bit more than that.  He referred to his sheep as his flock.  Of course, that's what you call a group of sheep.  But it's also what a priest calls his parishioners.  I think Fogden is living in the past, because he can't deal with the present.  Between Ermenegilda's loss and having to live with Mamacity, I think he would rather live in a simpler time when he was a priest, tending his flock (parishioners). 

[danfan]

Wow, you're moving fast. 

I know, I read about 10 times faster with my Kindle than I did with a book. Seriously though - my house is now a mess and my poor husband is handling the garden all on his own. I don't think I would have coped in an 18th century life with all that manual labor when there are so many books to read.  Heck, I should stick him in a kilt and just pretend we're in Lallybroch.

The strange things we think of when under a great deal of stress.  My mother still tells me to stand up straight.   

lol. I don't see my mother much since I moved to US but speak to her on the phone once or twice a week. At least once a month she says "Have you put on any weight?"

 

I think it was a bit more than that.  He referred to his sheep as his flock.  Of course, that's what you call a group of sheep.  But it's also what a priest calls his parishioners.  I think Fogden is living in the past, because he can't deal with the present.  Between Ermenegilda's loss and having to live with Mamacity, I think he would rather live in a simpler time when he was a priest, tending his flock (parishioners). 

Good catch, I missed that flock reference. Certainly I agree that he's living in a closed world, denying his present. He has a hard life to live, away from his vocation and suffering that odd woman every day!

[izzykolo]

Part 8--Voyager

"On The Water"
Chapters 40-52

I’ve been lurking through the first two books, but love reading all of your insightful comments. I have finished Voyager and am fighting the impulse to start Drums. By the way Gertie (Margaret), my time off from the Outlander series has given me an opportunity to read Ariana’s Pride, which I am loving!

1.  Has Jared changed since we saw him 20 years ago?
Didn’t really have a strong feeling about this.

2.  How did you feel about Claire’s visit to the hospital?
I thought at first that she went to see the grave of Mother Hildegard. It was really touching to think of Claire still grieving Faith.

3.  How did you feel about Jamie being a Mason?
Not surprised. His self-transformations have kept him alive.

4.  We meet another historical figure, Mayer Rothschild.  Do you like it when DG introduces us to these figures?  Would the story be as interesting without them?
I love the references to historical figures. I think about what it must be like for Claire to meet them or even hear reference to them, like Mother Hildegarde mention of Bach.

5.  Knowing Jamie’s susceptibility to seasickness, do you think he will overcome it after a day or two at sea as Jared assures him he will?
I hoped so, but doubted that he would. I never thought the seasickness would become as intense as it did.

6.  What complications can you forsee for Jamie now that Fergus has eloped with Marsali?
Laheer, Laheer. He will have to pay for this at some point, I think.

7.  Why do you think Jamie waited so long to let Mr. Willoughby help him?
Would you want needles sticking out of your face? It had to seem heathenistic – like a voodoo doll, but, it really opened my eyes to the depth of Mr. Willoughby’’s character and experiences.

8.  What do you think of Claire’s final letter to Bree?
It broke my heart.

Stand up straight and try not to get fat.

9.  What did you think of Mr. Willoughby’s story?
Wow! It made me think of all of the immigrants who have come to America, professionals and educated people, who have to put all that behind them and become who they may in the new world.

10.  Once again, Claire finds herself talking to a young girls about what to expect in a marriage.  How well do you think Claire handled Marsali’s questions?
In spite of Marsali’s hostility, Claire rose above that and counseled her in a way that Laheer never could.

11.  Do you think Captain Leonard was justified in taking Claire away on the Porpoise?
No, but I understand his desperation.

12.  Were you surprised to find John Gray aboard the Porpoise?  Do you think he recognized Claire? 
Yes, but I wasn’t surprised to see him again. Actually, I’m not surprised to see any of DG’s characters again! I really like Lord Gray and think he will be a long-time ally for Jamie.

13.  Tompkins holds the key to what happened in Edinburgh and Arbroath.  What did you think of his story?  Do you still think there is another traitor among the smugglers?
I think he told the truth and I believe there is another traitor.

14.  Do you think Claire made the right decision to escape from the Porpoise?
I can’t even imagine jumping into the ocean, at night, and hoping to survive – sharks, storms. It took a lot of courage for her to do this. I think Claire is a courageous woman, but this really increased my respect for her.

15.  What did you think of Claire running across the naturalist Jamie mentioned in a swamp a half a world away?
The coincidences are what make this series amazing!

16.  What did you think of Father Fogden’s story?
Another one of DG’s wonderful characters. I think the loss of his love destroyed him.

17.  Do you think Father Fogden is insane, or just drunken and eccentric?  What do you think about his sheep?
He’s a drunken, pot-head. I only hope he’s not molesting his sheep!

18.  Were you surprised when Jamie showed up on the Porpoise?
YES! And I wanted to scream!

19.  How do you think Jamie got to be captain of the guard on Hispaniola?
That’s a really good question. It’s really a tribute to his ability to morph into whoever he needs to be to survive. People believe him; they trust him. Obviously, he gave the garrison a story that made sense. BUT, what about the other soldiers who were with him when he took the ship? Did he let them go?

20.  Discuss Marsali and Fergus’ wedding.
One of the funniest scenes so far!

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

Part 8--Voyager

"On The Water"
Chapters 40-52

I’ve been lurking through the first two books, but love reading all of your insightful comments. I have finished Voyager and am fighting the impulse to start Drums.

Glad to see you've un-lurked.  Welcome to the Klub.  As many times as I have read these books, I'm gaining a whole new insight with everyone's responses. 

By the way Gertie (Margaret), my time off from the Outlander series has given me an opportunity to read Ariana’s Pride, which I am loving!

I'm still Gertie to all my KB friends.  I'm so happy that you are enjoying AP. 

4.  We meet another historical figure, Mayer Rothschild.  Do you like it when DG introduces us to these figures?  Would the story be as interesting without them?
I love the references to historical figures. I think about what it must be like for Claire to meet them or even hear reference to them, like Mother Hildegarde mention of Bach.

These people send me running to Wiki to get the background.  It's a major reason why I love historical novels. 

10.  Once again, Claire finds herself talking to a young girls about what to expect in a marriage.  How well do you think Claire handled Marsali’s questions?
In spite of Marsali’s hostility, Claire rose above that and counseled her in a way that Laheer never could.

No, Laheer would not have handled it well.  As Young Ian says about her; she doesn't even fight properly. 

3.  How did you feel about Jamie being a Mason?
Not surprised. His self-transformations have kept him alive.


19.  How do you think Jamie got to be captain of the guard on Hispaniola?
That’s a really good question. It’s really a tribute to his ability to morph into whoever he needs to be to survive. People believe him; they trust him. Obviously, he gave the garrison a story that made sense. BUT, what about the other soldiers who were with him when he took the ship? Did he let them go?

Good insight.  Jamie may sometimes feel like he's got too many identities, but you're right.  Reinventing himself is how he survives.  It's also a very compelling reason why he needs Claire so much.  She's the only one he can be himself with, say anything to, love without reservation, and she's the only one who doesn't want anything from him. 

20.  Discuss Marsali and Fergus’ wedding.
One of the funniest scenes so far!

Funny (Will you take this man who may or may not have a cock) and touching (Fergus Claudel Fraser). 

[izzykolo]

Funny (Will you take this man who may or may not have a cock) and touching (Fergus Claudel Fraser). 

Yes, while the wedding scene was wonderfully funny, the moment when Jamie acknowledges that he has adopted Fergus as a son is truly touching. DG is remarkable at taking a moment like this and just driving it home, visually and emotionally. Love it.

[RavenclawPrefect]

8.  What do you think of Claire’s final letter to Bree?

Stand up straight and try not to get fat.
 

Brianna being a big, tall lass...probably slouched quite a bit so to not tower over her friends as a young girl.  I am not that tall (5'8") but I can recall the anguish of being head and shoulders above all my friends.   "Stand up straight" in that context, reads to me "Be happy with yourself" The try not to get fat....well....it is the late 60's where Twiggy is a twig.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

Funny (Will you take this man who may or may not have a cock) and touching (Fergus Claudel Fraser). 

Yes, while the wedding scene was wonderfully funny, the moment when Jamie acknowledges that he has adopted Fergus as a son is truly touching. DG is remarkable at taking a moment like this and just driving it home, visually and emotionally. Love it.

Then DG ends the chapter with ... What I tell you three times is true.  (deeply felt sigh)

Brianna being a big, tall lass...probably slouched quite a bit so to not tower over her friends as a young girl.  I am not that tall (5'8") but I can recall the anguish of being head and shoulders above all my friends.   "Stand up straight" in that context, reads to me "Be happy with yourself" The try not to get fat....well....it is the late 60's where Twiggy is a twig.

Twiggy then ...



Twiggy now ...

[danfan]

19.  How do you think Jamie got to be captain of the guard on Hispaniola?
That’s a really good question. It’s really a tribute to his ability to morph into whoever he needs to be to survive. People believe him; they trust him. Obviously, he gave the garrison a story that made sense. BUT, what about the other soldiers who were with him when he took the ship? Did he let them go?

20.  Discuss Marsali and Fergus’ wedding.
One of the funniest scenes so far!

ok, I remember the Hispaniola scenes now. LOL I did think WTH??  How the heck does he manage these things??  I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall.

The wedding.... I silently cheered Jamie for giving Fergus his name.  Fergus idolized Jamie from so young and was no longer just his employee but his son. Wonderful!
LOL yeah - the marriage vows themselves and Father Fogden were too funny. 

[Toby]

     Yeah, that wedding was funny, with Father "frockless". Then I felt like crying when Jamie gave Fergus his name.

     Claire came back to Jamie, from an era where their children drank & smoked pot. The Father is drinking Sangria, also from Claire's era & smoking pot. Must be that things never change in 200 years!!! 

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

     Yeah, that wedding was funny, with Father "frockless". Then I felt like crying when Jamie gave Fergus his name.

 

   

 Claire came back to Jamie, from an era where their children drank & smoked pot. The Father is drinking Sangria, also from Claire's era & smoking pot. Must be that things never change in 200 years!!! 

Yeah, Claire was experiencing a flashback with that scene.  Jamie isn't aware of Sangria and pot, though. 

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

Part 8--Voyager

"On The Water"
Chapters 40-52

1.  Has Jared changed since we saw him 20 years ago?
I don’t think so. He is still the prosperous wine merchant who cares about his family.

2.  How did you feel about Claire’s visit to the hospital?
It was sad to read about her visiting Faith’s grave. I am sure she thought this was something she would never be able to do.

3.  How did you feel about Jamie being a Mason?
I had not realized how old the Mason society was. It seemed like an odd thing at the time.

4.  We meet another historical figure, Mayer Rothschild.  Do you like it when DG introduces us to these figures?  Would the story be as interesting without them?
It helps place people and places in the right time frame. I think introducing true historical figures makes them seem more human and the story more real.

5.  Knowing Jamie’s susceptibility to seasickness, do you think he will overcome it after a day or two at sea as Jared assures him he will?
Jamie is going to be green the entire trip!

6.  What complications can you forsee for Jamie now that Fergus has eloped with Marsali?
Loaghaire could have Jamie and Fergus arrested for kidnapping or insist on more money for a dowry.

7.  Why do you think Jamie waited so long to let Mr. Willoughby help him?
Jamie is a Scot. He doesn’t like new things, and acupuncture is way out of his range of experience.

8.  What do you think of Claire’s final letter to Bree?
I’m not sure I would have been a coherent. How do you tell your child all they mean to you, knowing you will never see them again?

Stand up straight and try not to get fat.

9.  What did you think of Mr. Willoughby’s story?
It was sad. It also answered a lot of questions about him. Is he The Fiend and this is why? 

10.  Once again, Claire finds herself talking to a young girl about what to expect in a marriage.  How well do you think Claire handled Marsali’s questions?
This was a very touchy situation. Marsali didn’t like Claire, but she didn’t know anything about sex. The only thing Marsali knew was that her mom was scared of Jamie, but Claire enjoyed Jamie.

11.  Do you think Captain Leonard was justified in taking Claire away on the Porpoise?
In whose mind? He was desperate to make it to Jamaica, but knew he couldn’t without medical care for his men.

12.  Were you surprised to find John Gray aboard the Porpoise?  Do you think he recognized Claire? 
He had to come back into the picture. Of course he would not recognize Claire. He had never met her and she wasn’t using the name of Fraser, so there would be no connection to Jamie.

13.  Tompkins holds the key to what happened in Edinburgh and Arbroath.  What did you think of his story?  Do you still think there is another traitor among the smugglers?
I think he told the truth, but there had to be someone on the inside to pass on information.

14.  Do you think Claire made the right decision to escape from the Porpoise?
She’s Claire. She couldn’t do anything else. Her only focus was to find and warn Jamie.

15.  What did you think of Claire running across the naturalist Jamie mentioned in a swamp a half a world away?
What a coincidence.

16.  What did you think of Father Fogden’s story? 
His woman must have been an exceptional woman to make him leave the priesthood and run off with her when she was married to another man.

17.  Do you think Father Fogden is insane, or just drunken and eccentric?  What do you think about his sheep?
A hippy about 200 years ahead of the trend! I think there was definitely something wrong with him. Even when he wasn’t drunk, his care of his sheep was over the top.

18.  Were you surprised when Jamie showed up on the Porpoise?
No, he is still the same Jamie he was 20 years ago.

19.  How do you think Jamie got to be captain of the guard on Hispaniola?
Jamie was a leader and drew men to him. People would follow whatever he said, because he would never ask more than he was willing to do himself.

20.  Discuss Marsali and Fergus’ wedding.
It was very unconventional, but Marsali was going to hold Jamie to his promise that she and Fergus could marry as soon as they found a priest.

[danfan]

12.  Were you surprised to find John Gray aboard the Porpoise?  Do you think he recognized Claire?  
He had to come back into the picture. Of course he would not recognize Claire. He had never met her and she wasn’t using the name of Fraser, so there would be no connection to Jamie.

John Grey had met Claire many many years ago. He was the young soldier who thought she'd been kidnapped by Jamie when they were set up camp prior to the battle at Prestopans, and John crept up behind Jamie to attack him & Jamie broke his arm. Remember when Jamie ripped the front of her dress and gagged her, going along with the pretense to get Grey to talk?

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

John Grey had met Claire many many years ago. He was the young soldier who thought she'd been kidnapped by Jamie when they were set up camp prior to the battle at Prestopans. Remember when Jamie ripped the front of her dress and gagged her, going along with the pretense to get Grey to talk?

Oh yeah. How could I forget! I was just thinking about John and Jamie knowing each other at Ardsmuir. But, it had been 20 years and she was traveling under a different name. Also, he was under the same impression of everyone else that Claire was dead.

[danfan]

Oh yeah. How could I forget! I was just thinking about John and Jamie knowing each other at Ardsmuir. But, it had been 20 years and she was traveling under a different name. Also, he was under the same impression of everyone else that Claire was dead.

Yes, he did think she was dead so even if he'd seen a resemblance, it may not have entered his head at all, being locked up in a cabin on a ship plagued with small pox!

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

Oh yeah. How could I forget! I was just thinking about John and Jamie knowing each other at Ardsmuir. But, it had been 20 years and she was traveling under a different name. Also, he was under the same impression of everyone else that Claire was dead.

I'm sure there is no way Claire would know who John was, either.  He was just a young boy at the time.  When she looked at the prison records from Ardsmuir, she probably didn't bother looking at the Commandant's name, so she wouldn't have known who he was from his name, either.  If she had, she might have jumped off the Porpoise earlier. 

[Toby]

      LOL! Gertie, that's funny! Claire would have jumped ship earlier........LOL!

      What's worse is, I did not even pick up on John Grey's name at all as Governer, until you mentioned his character showing up.  I think I would have, however, had John or Claire reacted as if 1 or the other or both recognized each other or their name.

[Vegas_Asian]

I just realized that Lord John Grey has his own series: Have lots of reading to do. (just finished Voyager)


Another Thing: May I join the book klub?

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

I just realized that Lord John Grey has his own series: Have lots of reading to do. (just finished Voyager)


Another Thing: May I join the book klub?

Absolutely.  We'd love to have you.  Jump right in. 

I only read Lord John and the Private Matter and I wasn't impressed. 

[Vegas_Asian]

Yay! (will refer back need to look for my copy of the Voyager)

[imallbs]

Chapters 40-52

1.  Has Jared changed since we saw him 20 years ago?
I didn’t see any changes in him although I don’t remember any hints at smuggling activities in the last book.

2.  How did you feel about Claire’s visit to the hospital?
When she was at the grave I thought she was visiting Mother Hildegarde’s grave; I had forgotten about Faith.  It was a very touching scene.  I wondered why Claire had never visited Faith’s grave in the future (present?) assuming it still existed.  
16 Boutons wow!

3.  How did you feel about Jamie being a Mason?
I had not thought about the Masons when reading the book but I think it fits Jamie.  

4.  We meet another historical figure, Mayer Rothschild.  Do you like it when DG introduces us to these figures?  Would the story be as interesting without them?
They are a big reason why I read historical fiction.  I’m a history buff so it really makes the story more interesting for me.  Claire wasn’t such a history buff (interesting given her background) so I don’t think she found it as interesting as, say Frank, would have.

5.  Knowing Jamie’s susceptibility to seasickness, do you think he will overcome it after a day or two at sea as Jared assures him he will?
No!  I don’t think he does either.  Going in search of Ian is a real testament to Jamie’s feelings for his family, his sense of responsibility and his guilt.

6.  What complications can you forsee for Jamie now that Fergus has eloped with Marsali?  
Laoghaire ain’t gonna be happy ‘bout this!  So Jamie has two people he considers his children married to each other…interesting

7.  Why do you think Jamie waited so long to let Mr. Willoughby help him?  
Stubborn Scot.  But it is hard to try something you don’t understand.


8.  What do you think of Claire’s final letter to Bree?
Stand up straight and try not to get fat.
Interesting choice.  Earlier in the book Joe Abernathy had told Claire that she hadn’t changed during the time she knew him and didn’t look old because she didn’t get fat.  Was Claire thinking about coming back some day and being able to recognize Bree?

9.  What did you think of Mr. Willoughby’s story?  
Interesting.  I never pegged him for a poet.  I was starting to feel for the guy and then he had to go and blow it

10.  Once again, Claire finds herself talking to a young girls about what to expect in a marriage.  How well do you think Claire handled Marsali’s questions?
Claire has a lot of patience.  I would have been tempted to tell the little brat to p*ss off.  But Claire wanted to build a relationship of some sort with her for Jamie’s sake if for nothing else.  And Claire is a caretaker.

11.  Do you think Captain Leonard was justified in taking Claire away on the Porpoise? He was young and desperate.  He probably thought he made it more honorable by agreeing not to conscript the men on the Artemis

12.  Were you surprised to find John Gray aboard the Porpoise? 
Big Surprise – right up there with the biggest of them!
Do you think he recognized Claire?   No

13.  Tompkins holds the key to what happened in Edinburgh and Arbroath.  What did you think of his story?  Do you still think there is another traitor among the smugglers? 
I think he was truthful.  But who’s the traitor? There has to be another one.

14.  Do you think Claire made the right decision to escape from the Porpoise?
It was right for her; she can’t sit around and do nothing

15.  What did you think of Claire running across the naturalist Jamie mentioned in a swamp a half a world away?
Another coincidence; love how DG brings everything together.  There is very little in this story that isn’t related to something else.

16.  What did you think of Father Fogden’s story? 
Strange.  All that so there would be an appropriate dress for a wedding?

17.  Do you think Father Fogden is insane, or just drunken and eccentric?  
Drunken, pot smoking, personality disordered, mentally ill sheep priest; He would have to be out of it to deal with mamacita.  Not a nice woman. Such an appropriate name – he does exit in a fog doesn’t he.

What do you think about his sheep?
At least he has a flock

18.  Were you surprised when Jamie showed up on the Porpoise?
No, it was a given; Claire would leave and Jamie would try to rescue her.  I was going to say “they should have known better” but they have been apart for a long time so maybe they have to relearn each other.

19.  How do you think Jamie got to be captain of the guard on Hispaniola?
Who knows.  He is apparently still able to charm all men and women.  What’s his name now?

20.  Discuss Marsali and Fergus’ wedding.
Fergus Claudel Fraser – perfect!
There had been some discussion in the last book of Jamie treating Fergus as a Laird does the people on his land.  Fergus deserved better than that and he got it.  One of the best parts of all the books.

Oh the wedding – nice, now Jamie can leave them alone.

[imallbs]

3.  How did you feel about Jamie being a Mason?
Surprised and not surprised at the same time. Wondered when on earth he found time in his up and down life!

3.  How did you feel about Jamie being a Mason?
Not surprised. His self-transformations have kept him alive.

Jamie really does transform himself as needed; he has since we 1st met him in Outlander.  I hadn't really thought about when Jamie would have become a Mason.  I'm guessing when he was in Edinburgh?  If I'm remembering my history correctly, the Masons became popular in Scotland after the uprising probably in response to the oppressive English policies - they were able to use the strength of numbers and secrecy to keep their culture and fight the English.

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

Jamie really does transform himself as needed; he has since we 1st met him in Outlander.  I hadn't really thought about when Jamie would have become a Mason.  I'm guessing when he was in Edinburgh?  If I'm remembering my history correctly, the Masons became popular in Scotland after the uprising probably in response to the oppressive English policies - they were able to use the strength of numbers and secrecy to keep their culture and fight the English.

Jamie became a Mason while in Ardsmuir prison. I was suprised that it was not discussed during his time in prison, but came out while meeting with Jared in France.

[danfan]

16.  What did you think of Father Fogden’s story? 
Strange.  All that so there would be an appropriate dress for a wedding?

ROFL! 

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

Laoghaire ain’t gonna be happy ‘bout this!  So Jamie has two people he considers his children married to each other…interesting

The issue of Jamie's children getting married is not really a problem. Marsali was his stepdaughter, so no relation. Fergus would have been considered his foster son or ward. Such a marriage would not have been thought odd under normal circumstances, but of course, with Jamie nothing is normal.

[Anju No. 469]

IMHO the Lord John books are not worth the price, free maybe but I have two of them and really did not care for either, will give away and definitely not replace on kindle.

[Toby]

     I didn't know that Jamie became a Mason while in prison. How was that possible if he was in prison?

     I'm finding all the historical people/ bits of history so interesting. I guess if you were Claire & you read about these people, then met them or the heirs to these people, this would certainly be cool. Even though she isn't into history as Frank was, I can certaintly understaind Claire being curious about all these historical people.

[tlshaw *Padded Cell 511*]

When Jamie and Claire were in France with Jared, Jamie told Jared he had joined the mason in prison. There were other mason members there and they started their own lodge.

[ScrappingForever]

On The Water"
Chapters 40-52

1.  Has Jared changed since we saw him 20 years ago?
No, I don't think so. Just as practical and business-like.

2.  How did you feel about Claire’s visit to the hospital?
Glad to see her do it. Glad to find out how Mother Hildegard was doing.

3.  How did you feel about Jamie being a Mason?

4.  We meet another historical figure, Mayer Rothschild.  Do you like it when DG introduces us to these figures?  Would the story be as interesting without them?
It would probably be as interesting, but I do enjoy these little snippets that DG throws in there.

5.  Knowing Jamie’s susceptibility to seasickness, do you think he will overcome it after a day or two at sea as Jared assures him he will?
Um....no!

6.  What complications can you forsee for Jamie now that Fergus has eloped with Marsali?

7.  Why do you think Jamie waited so long to let Mr. Willoughby help him?

8.  What do you think of Claire’s final letter to Bree?

Stand up straight and try not to get fat.

9.  What did you think of Mr. Willoughby’s story?
Sad.

10.  Once again, Claire finds herself talking to a young girls about what to expect in a marriage.  How well do you think Claire handled Marsali’s questions?
Not very well, but then, they were interrupted.

11.  Do you think Captain Leonard was justified in taking Claire away on the Porpoise?
No, not at all! I don't care how desparate he was! Punk!

12.  Were you surprised to find John Gray aboard the Porpoise?  Do you think he recognized Claire?
No, they didn't recognize each other. Yes, it always amazes me how DG manages to bring the characters back into the story.

13.  Tompkins holds the key to what happened in Edinburgh and Arbroath.  What did you think of his story?  Do you still think there is another traitor among the smugglers?
Hmm.....

14.  Do you think Claire made the right decision to escape from the Porpoise?
Probably. It all gets very complicated when one lives with Jamie, doesn't it!

15.  What did you think of Claire running across the naturalist Jamie mentioned in a swamp a half a world away?
Isn't it amazing what a small world it was, even back in those times!

16.  What did you think of Father Fogden’s story? 

17.  Do you think Father Fogden is insane, or just drunken and eccentric?  What do you think about his sheep?
A little of all 3. I think his sheep are his flock, since he has none now....then.

18.  Were you surprised when Jamie showed up on the Porpoise?
Not really - "Where you go, I will go. Where you stay, I will stay. etc., etc., etc. "

19.  How do you think Jamie got to be captain of the guard on Hispaniola?
You know, I've always wondered that!

20.  Discuss Marsali and Fergus’ wedding.

There! Finally posted something here!

[Toby]

     Uhhh, I forget that, about the Mason thing, tlshaw. Vera interesting! 

     I was surprised that Claire didn't want to also visit the lady friend that took care of her, after Claire lost her baby. I was glad that she visited Mother H. & Boutin #16. I wonder who bred these dogs for her?

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

14.  Do you think Claire made the right decision to escape from the Porpoise?
Probably. It all gets very complicated when one lives with Jamie, doesn't it!

To put it mildly ...

There! Finally posted something here!

Good to see you back, Jan. 

We'll be starting Drums next week.  I usually like to take a week in between books, but we're trying to get through all of them before Echo comes out in September.  The next three books run close to 3,000 pages.  I don't even want to think how many locations that is.   

I hope you can stay with us. 

[danfan]

When Jamie and Claire were in France with Jared, Jamie told Jared he had joined the mason in prison. There were other mason members there and they started their own lodge.

I hadn't remembered that either, but the Find feature on the kindle is great LOL - type in mason, and straight to the passage where Jamie said "In prison."  

     I was surprised that Claire didn't want to also visit the lady friend that took care of her, after Claire lost her baby. I was glad that she visited Mother H. & Boutin #16. I wonder who bred these dogs for her?

If forgot about her. Louise, was it?  I also expected a visit to Mary Hawkins perhaps, while Claire was still in Scotland. She seemed like a character who would pop up again.

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

If forgot about her. Louise, was it?  I also expected a visit to Mary Hawkins perhaps, while Claire was still in Scotland. She seemed like a character who would pop up again.

Louise de Rohan.  They did have a son but he lived less than a year. 

I don't think Claire had much time to visit.  Things happened so quickly. 

Mary Hawkins might not have been living in Edinburgh anymore, or living at all for that matter. 

Just as an historical note, Charles did have a daughter by Clementina, his Scottish mistress.  Her name was Charlotte.  She, in turn, had three illegitimate children, one of whom married a Polish nobleman.  It's believed that there are still descendants of Charles Stuart living in Poland. 

So glad you asked.   

[Toby]

     Good discussion here of Claire's friends & Gertie's historical facts that I for 1 did not know & find fascinating.

[danfan]

I don't think Claire had much time to visit.  Things happened so quickly. 

Mary Hawkins might not have been living in Edinburgh anymore, or living at all for that matter. 

Yes, I should re-phrase really. Given that so many side characters come back when we least expect it, I expected Mary to pop up somewhere again. Lesson: Don't try to predict the unexpected in the Outlander series!

[Gertie Kindle 'a/k/a Margaret Lake']

Yes, I should re-phrase really. Given that so many side characters come back when we least expect it, I expected Mary to pop up somewhere again. Lesson: Don't try to predict the unexpected in the Outlander series!

Important safety tip.