First stupid problem with KDP people

[kisala9906]

If you run a G search on J school, the page of links starts with the Berkeley Graduate School of Journalism and includes the J schools of:  Mizzou, Columbia, CUNY, UNC, Indiana U, and a wikipedia article about journalism school . . .

if I am reading a book last thing I want to do it stop to do a google search just saying

[SuzanneTyrpak]

I'm sorry to hear about this, Robert. I look forward to hearing about a resolution.

Offering $5 to report mistakes sounds like an exceptionally bad idea.

[genevieveaclark]

if I am reading a book last thing I want to do it stop to do a google search just saying

It's pretty common slang IMO. I also think it's possible to deduce the meaning from the context of "two people involved in the journalism world having a conversation". Regardless, it's how characters with journalism related backgrounds would talk. I can't even imagine the sorts of complaints that could be leveled at sci-fi or fantasy books if we use "not immediately understood" as the threshold.

[Gretchen Galway]

...or the slang in a medical or legal thriller, for instance. Many of our most popular fiction takes place in the workplace - and that is inevitably filled with jargon. To write it so that any person (or even most) would know exactly what you were talking about, your fiction would be filled with clumsy, unrealistic lines.

"Give it to me stat," the doctor said. "That's an abbreviation for the latin term statim meaning right away!"

[HelenHanson]

if I am reading a book last thing I want to do it stop to do a google search just saying

Sorry, I wasn't suggesting you G search it.  I read the book, and the term was quite understandable.  My point was that the vernacular is widely accepted.   Amazon shouldn't have an issue with it, especially in dialogue.

[SuzanneTyrpak]

I just got a message from KDP about their new twitter account @AmazonKDP
to help independent writers. I tweeted about this. Maybe we all should.

[Phoenix Sullivan]

Since I have not read the book and maybe it would make more sense if I did but I may have had trouble with knowing what J school meant.

if I am reading a book last thing I want to do it stop to do a google search just saying

Sorry, but I don't think it's the author's responsibility to anticipate vocubulary skill level before writing a book for adults.

However, maybe this is the potential for interactive books. Hover over any word in the story and get its definitions! Oh wait. Which dictionary would be used? Would "street" words and other slang be included? Foreign phrases? Older definitions that have fallen out of favor but that may be period appropriate? Regional variations? How about discoverable language like that in Clockwork Orange? Or do authors simply forsake those words for least-common-denominator ones?

Someone somewhere is not going to know a word that the next person considers common. How is that the author's fault?

[Terrence OBrien]

"Right, but I think Amazon's concern is that those customers stop buying books on spec in general because they can't be sure books on kindle will be of a minimum standard, which would definitely cost Amazon money."

I can't say how many of that type of consumer there are, nor can I say what they will do. But Amazon has all the data they need to monitor their behavior. They do know. This enters the quantitative realm. They know what percentage of consumers complain. They know what percentage of total sales they represent. And they know their buying pattern before and after they start complaining. They know if they are a material factor. I don't know any of that. Amazon still doesn't call.

Companies don't take action because something might happen with an unknown effect. If they did, they would be chasing their tails forever. The opposite or any of a zillion permutations might also happen. They have to evaluate these things.

And the $5 bounty? If you want more of anything, then pay for it. If they want even more complaints, they can offer $10.

Companies like Amazon are also very concerned with their reputation. So a counter weight to the complaints is the ridicule they will take for rejecting the Chicago style in a message with a grammar error.

They know right now what is happening.

[kindlescribbler.com]

Sorry, I wasn't suggesting you G search it.  I read the book, and the term was quite understandable.  My point was that the vernacular is widely accepted.   Amazon shouldn't have an issue with it, especially in dialogue.

But even if the vernacular isn't widely accepted - why should amazon have an issue with anything like that? If that's the author's choice of word - it should stay that way. ( I mean I have trouble reading TS Eliot - but they shouldn't edit him -  should they?) It's strange.

[genevieveaclark]

I think we are actually agreeing, Terrence. I can't be sure. But I think it might be happening.

"Right, but I think Amazon's concern is that those customers stop buying books on spec in general because they can't be sure books on kindle will be of a minimum standard, which would definitely cost Amazon money."

I can't say how many of that type of consumer there are, nor can I say what they will do. But Amazon has all the data they need to monitor their behavior. They do know. This enters the quantitative realm. They know what percentage of consumers complain. They know what percentage of total sales they represent. And they know their buying pattern before and after they start complaining. They know if they are a material factor. I don't know any of that. Amazon still doesn't call.

Companies don't take action because something might happen with an unknown effect. If they did, they would be chasing their tails forever. The opposite or any of a zillion permutations might also happen. They have to evaluate these things.

And the $5 bounty? If you want more of anything, then pay for it. If they want even more complaints, they can offer $10.

Companies like Amazon are also very concerned with their reputation. So a counter weight to the complaints is the ridicule they will take for rejecting the Chicago style in a message with a grammar error.

They know right now what is happening.

[HelenHanson]

But even if the vernacular isn't widely accepted - why should amazon have an issue with anything like that? If that's the author's choice of word - it should stay that way. ( I mean I have trouble reading TS Eliot - but they shouldn't edit him -  should they?) It's strange.

I'm in the alto section of this particular choir.  As a reader, I'm disappointed if I don't learn a new word or two when I read . . .

[Robert Bidinotto]

Gotta [<---------spell check?] tell you, I didn't expect this response. I was just ventilating. I'm gratified that so many of you saw in this the seeds of something with bigger [no comma needed here] long-term [nor here] implications than my little spat.

The implications, of course, arise from the Reddit post to which others have alluded. If true, it means that Amazon is stupidly offering a $5 bounty to readers who voice complaints against our books! Not only will they read our work without compensating US, Amazon will reward THEM for their scamming. Unbelievable. Whoever in Seattle came up with this lame-brained notion deserves to be keel-hauled behind a salmon boat in the Puget Sound.

Less colorfully, we should consider insisting that Amazon initiate a policy of investigating the merits of customer complaints before depriving us of our royalties. If they wish to refund money to some reader, no questions asked, fine. But it should be corporate money, not ours...until and unless they determine that his complaint against our work was justified.

Just FYI, as of 4:45 pm Eastern, my Kindle sales appear to be coming through, returning to normal (they were stalled for hours this a.m.) Meanwhile, my Author Central page has displayed this banner in an anemic, [<------note comma] pastel yellow since the early a.m.:

"We are experiencing a delay in updating your sales info. Rest assured that we are working to update this page as soon as possible. Thank you for your patience!"

And KDP's "Bookshelf" page for me still lists HUNTER in "draft" status. Oh, goodie!

I've yet to hear from the geniuses at KDP to explain or apologize for this stupidity. When I do, I think I'll turn the tables: I'll demand $5 in compensation for their accepting, at face value, frivolous complaints from customers who read my book without paying me.

Finally, regarding use of slang by characters in fiction. Mygod, folks. The first responsibility of a novelist is to provide his readers with, at minimum, the illusion of reality in his characters. Having two people in the newspaper business refer to "J school" rather than "journalism school" adds to that sense of realism. I also have cops using the argot of the crime world and CIA officers the jargon of the intelligence community ("IC," if you care). But in all cases, I try to let the context provide sufficient explanation so that the reader grasps the meaning.

For example, an early conversation between two CIA people refers to "the Counterintelligence Center," and to "counterintelligence," but then to "CI." Soon I swap out the terms in ways that ought to make clear to any reader what "CI" means. But it would seem completely unrealistic to have these people constantly using full and formal terms rather than abbreviations. Or to have cops at a crime scene referring to "the deceased" or "the suspect" instead of "the stiff" and "the perp."

[Terrence OBrien]

Good thing your characters never called anyone a SOB.

[Ruth Harris]

Robert, this is mind-boggling. A sub-literate email from the dark alleys of Calcutta (or God knows where) berating you about the use of Oxford commas? Un-[expletive]-believable.  Shiva only knows what they'd make of that particular, not-uncommon usage. ;-)

 

[JoanReeves]

I too follow The Chicago Manual of Style and use what is commonly known as the Oxford comma in punctuating items in a series. I hope they don't slam me on this because I am consistent in this usage so I have 6 books punctuated in that manner, and I know I am correct because either way is acceptable.

Different style manuals may reference one as superior to the other, but each is acceptable.

[EllenFisher]

I too follow The Chicago Manual of Style and use what is commonly known as the Oxford comma in punctuating items in a series.

One of my favorite things about going indie was the fact that I no longer had to bow to someone else's "house style."  I added quite a few of those commas back in when I re-released my books, because I personally prefer the extra comma.  I'll be a trifle more than cranky if Amazon tries to ding me for it.

[JoanReeves]

I'll be a trifle more than cranky if Amazon tries to ding me for it.

Same here. They need to hire a grammarian if they're going to start doing this.

[genevieveaclark]

When I do, I think I'll turn the tables: I'll demand $5 in compensation for their accepting, at face value, frivolous complaints from customers who read my book without paying me.

Robert, I think you have every right to be p*ssed, and I have no idea if you're just venting, but if you're sincere about the above quote: please don't do this. I think it's a bad idea. It's their store. They can do whatever they want. There's already this thread, and I imagine they already have a bunch of headaches because of this policy.

I would complain, absolutely, but I think demanding compensation...I don't think you'll get a good response.

[WadeArnold]

I too follow The Chicago Manual of Style and use what is commonly known as the Oxford comma in punctuating items in a series. I hope they don't slam me on this because I am consistent in this usage so I have 6 books punctuated in that manner, and I know I am correct because either way is acceptable.

Different style manuals may reference one as superior to the other, but each is acceptable.

I believe the AP style guide says exactly the opposite for commas, which is widely used in news. This just further shows the ignorance of the "editor" sending the email. There's a difference in how you write fiction and non-fiction, features and straight news. Regardless, nothing wrong with those examples at all.

Don't be surprised though if this was a legitimate complaint, not just someone trying to get a free ebook. Having worked with the public for years, the oddest complaints come in about the oddest subjects, but then for Amazon to follow through on it is really weird.

[MikeAngel]

People have been murdered over the serial comma.

[Les Turner]

I've had emails from them before not in proper English having obviously come from someone in India or somewhere other than either UK or USA.

UK, USA... Australia, New Zealand etc etc 

[Robert Bidinotto]

Genevieve, I won't ask for the $5. I was just trying to leaven the situation with a bit of humor. I should know better than to try that on the Internet!

I don't think this is about Oxford commas or anything substantive. This looks like a corporate-style response to placate some jerk who wanted an excuse to get his money back, and who had to grasp at straws and seize upon anything he or she could find in the book to complain.

Now, what if a couple of people did this? It's possible. Out of hundreds of sales this month, I have 6 refund requests, plus two recent 2-star reviews that stand like lonely weeds in a field of 61 Amazon reader bouquets. Perhaps some suit at Amazon interpreted a couple of faux complaints as a "trend," and then tasked some poor outsourced clerk in Bangladesh with the mission of cutting-and-pasting those complaint(s) to me.

In short, upon reflection, this has "Stupid" written all over it. But it arises from a company policy of paying people, with refunds and compensatory $5 bills, to concoct criticisms. I expect an apologetic message from Seattle -- after this Public Relations Crisis goes before some internal Standards and Practices committee, which will agonize about Amazon's standing policy of handling customer complaints and refunds. Gosh, maybe a Blue Ribbon Commission will be formed to investigate. Maybe suits will be dispatched on a fact-finding mission....

Ultimately, the poor clerk in Bangladesh will take the fall, of course.

[Carradee]

One of my favorite things about going indie was the fact that I no longer had to bow to someone else's "house style."

Agreed.  I use my own personal 'house style', an example of which is in how I'm punctuating this sentence.  I use double quotes for out-loud speech, for example, and single quotes for other cases that would otherwise use double quotes.  It's clearer, that way.

But since it's my house style, I'm sure it's only a matter of time before someone pitches a fit.

[nomesque]

Amazon are infamous for giving their tech support people a LOT of power, and allowing them to make a lot of judgement calls. This is great when the individual team member actually possesses judgement.

What I suspect happened:

Amazon Team Leader: Hey guys, we're trialling a process of taking customer complaints about book quality. Check out the book, if the formatting or spelling and grammar suck, give the customer a refund and $5, and pull the book.

Amazon Team Member: Finally! My chance to rid the world of Oxford commas!!

From what I've seen, the best way to handle it is to politely query whatever odd decision has been made, setting out reasons for your case. As long as said query hits someone with sense, the problem should go away.

[Carld]

I would note that people aren't doing this for refunds. You can get a refund for any ebook no questions asked already. If Amazon is offering a bounty on bad books that's another story. I'm sure there are scammers out there latching on to this with gusto, turning in every book they imagine they've found an error in, even if they have to make it up.